peugeot mongrel

I just received this challenged beauty and I am trying to figure out as much as I can about it and Giovanni Pelizzoli. I've been all over Polizzoli World and found quite a few images searching. Who built them when Pelizzoli sold the brand (1980 by his site)?

The seat stays and fork crown are what I am trying to figure out. This one has elongated Cs but no "flying C" (little tab in the front of the C) like most I have seen in pix. The early ones I found in pix don't have that tab but the Cs on them don't seem elongated like these. Its seems like an early 80s frame.

what I know
its 55 x 55 c-c
26.8 seatpost - 2,040g frame & 703g fork
no cutouts in the lugs
Campagnolo dropouts
2 bottle cages
derailleur is clamp on
128mm rear spacing so it has probably been built up 130mm before
decals are repos
the paint is distressed but was professionally done last time pearl white

I'm pretty sure I'm going to like it ...

Chombi

Looks to me to be all genuine Ciocc there with all those Ciocc pantographs......Could be early to mid 80's with SL tubing. check the bb shell area to see if you can spot any rifling in the frame tubes in case it's SLX which will significantly raise the value of that frame compared to an SL tubed frameset. IIRC, Mid 80's and up models usually came with the FD tab on the seat tube.

Chombi

DiabloScott

I'm going with early 80's - that bb cutout wasn't on my 1985 and they kind of dropped the "four aces" logo about that time too.

unworthy1

it has the ten-speed-drive logo on the brake bridge, so you know who imported this one. Doesn't have the "pin-tail" lugs, but otherwise seems like what TSD called the "Pro" model given the chrome, almost certainly Columbus SL...no, wait...a 26.8 seatpost would be an Aelle frame...check and make sure that's the correct size post.

peugeot mongrel

I'll check the seatpost again tomorrow but a 27.2 doesn't want to go in it. It is a bit light for Aelle though. It does have short chain stays. thanks mm

sloar 

Check your seat post tube, when I got my Ciocc the slit in the top of the tube was crimped to tight and a 27.2 wouldn't fit, I appeased the slit a little and it fit right in.

unworthy1

It's right in that "gray area" of Ciocc production: I only have the Bulgier catalogs to go by, but most of the details are consistent with the earlier (not TSD) Italian model called "World '77", except the catalog says it's Columbus SL:
https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/ciocc/04.jpg
note that it has the portacatena dropouts...we know the decals are re-pops but I'd bet that the masking of new paint is exactly what was there before...and the steerer has rifling.
I'm with sloar: make sure there's no pinching or deformation of the seat tube opening cause I really don't think this is an Aelle frame...but who knows what TSD was getting in the very early batches they imported?
Question: is the 2nd set of WB bosses (on ST) exactly like the ones on the DT?

peugeot mongrel

Now were getting somewhere. The 2nd set of water bottle holes are not as well done and a little bit different. Helps explain no tail on C. Jury is still out on the ST size. The top of the seat tube has the cut all the way to the hole, but the bottom tab of the binder clamp on the lug is still connected with metal and there seems like a little pucker. 27.2 goes to that point (very tight) then stops. I think tomorrow I'll open that slit. (no hacksaw blade at the office)

It still lacks the pinched lugs with cutouts, but it doesn't have the dimple in the chain stays like the Aelle frames. The pannos on the early bikes look like the c is not as elongated. thanks mm

unworthy1

another little trivia detail is the panto on the forkcrown: this is the "early" style where the "club" shape is debossed (recessed) and the "card suits" are embossed (raised). Later versions had everything recessed.
My San Cristobal is very similar except for the lugs which are "pintail" and have a club cutout in the lower headlug, plus the backside of the seatlug comes to a point, where yours is cut square. My SC also has the TSD logo on the brakebridge, and it has "pinned" construction: a pin is easy to see at the inside base of the forkcrown and inside the BB shell...and nearly identical chrome-masking to yours.

thinktubes 

Yeah, the fork looks different than my Designer 84. Mine has the recessed panto on the fork and also the fork is lugged. I would guess that mine is around 1986 (it has a reg. sticker with that date). Also has a similar BB cutout and TSD stamp.

peugeot mongrel

This one is pinned construction also. The seat lug as well as being flat across the back the binder is closer to the tube. Not as dramatic. Ive seen that lug on some of the pix with painted rear triangles. If Pelizzoli sold the brand in 1980 as is stated on his history page Pelizzoli World who made the 80s frames?

unworthy1

Ciocc-cat named three individuals who bought out the name from Giovanni P., but I can't recall them and they meant nothing to me (though maybe were big in the Italian cycling biz).
If you had the fun of seeing that long "industrial film" with the horrendous classical-pop soundtrack you were probably seeing the actual builders who made all the Ciocc, Conti and John frames in the early '80s.

Found the post, maybe the link to the video is still good:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...cal+soundtrack

In the late '80s and beyond production apparently was out-sourced to contract building factories like the Bilotti Brothers, maybe the Ciocc name was still in the hands of the "3 Amigos" who first bought it, maybe not, but around this time the same contractor(s) were building Concordes with many of the same features as Ciocc (and Conti) frames.
Many details remain clouded in secrecy (or just forgotten).

fietsbob

26.8 is expected if the seat tube was not butted , straight gage ie 0.9mm tube wall
or say 1mm before prep reaming. not the thinner 0.7mm wall on the top..

peugeot mongrel

that video is fascinating - thanks