1952 Raleigh Superbe - newbie questions
 

Just this weekend (23 September 2012) I've bought a 1952 Raleigh. Its a four-speed and Dynohub model, with rod brakes, locking fork, full chain case and known to be an ex-police bike. As a newcomer to old bikes (two days a newcomer at the time of writing) I have some questions! First, the bike appears to be a Superbe, but while the photos of other constabulary bikes I've seen of this era also look to be Superbes, the transfers/decals on them simply say Raleigh, not Superbe. I'm mindful that the bikes I've seen pictures of have all been restored and none are original.

Secondly, while there are plenty of magazines for old cars, old trucks and old aeroplanes, etc, covering what's what and how to fix/restore them, there doesn't seem to be any publication on similar lines like for old bikes - in particular, I mean the common-or-garden, bread-and-butter bikes, the Morris Minors of their time, not racers. Is this so, or is there some magazine in regular print that I've not happened to see?

Thirdly, the lack of such a magazine means I don't know where to find spares in the UK, though I'm sure there are plenty. I can see various Internet presences, but would guess that I'm missing just as many. Are there any suppliers of parts in the UK for this era of bikes who are well-known? I'm not asking for a recommendation, just a pointer.

Finally, if this is the wrong forum and there is something better somewhere else on the Internet more tailored to 1952 Raleigh Possibly Superbes, perhaps anyone reading this could direct me to it.

Many thanks for reading this,
Paul Sanderson, Beckenham, Kent, UK

Your on the right forum, but we like pictures!

Well, you're off to a good start. Yes, we want to see some pictures!
I've ordered from these guys, they've got a pretty complete selection;
http://www.oldbiketrader.co.uk/
There's another vintage bike dealer over there with lots of really tasty pictures of really old British bikes. I can't remember their name right now. They've got lots of nice parts for sale, too.

I can't offer much help in sourcing parts, but I just recently finished refurbishing a Raleigh of the same vintage and you're sure to have a fun project ahead of you, and a fine bicycle as a reward!

There is a fantastic bike club in UK called "Veterans cycle club" (V-CC) that is home to many Raleigh fanatics. They hold rides, jumbles and camp weekends. They also have more reading material that one could hope for as well as two quarterly publications. Real C&V.

http://www.v-cc.org.uk/

The rod brake Superbe was a top of the line bike in British line in the 1950s. The more common Superbe/DL23 is the upgraded Raleigh Sports/DL22. However, the earlier, British line of Superbes (Dawn Superbe etc) were top of the line rod brake roadsters that usually had a dynohub, full chaincase, dry batter unit, and front mudflap. They have a sort of "Rolls Royce" element to them.

I still think this site is the best for learning about them:

http://sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

Sheldon Brown devoted pages to both English 3-speeds in general, as well as Raleigh-specific 3 speeds. Sheldon's site helped get me started doing all my own work on 3 speeds maybe 9 years ago or so. It has what you need to get started.

http://sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/

There are also some catalogs there.

http://oldbike.wordpress.com/

There's a nice blog with some good pictures too.

Many thanks everyone... looks like I've hit paydirt right here! I was already aware of Sheldon Brown's website due to getting interested in bikes a few years ago, but was astonished (and dismayed) to find only a few weeks ago that he'd died at about the time I discovered him. That's well hidden in the labyrinthine Sheldon Brown website.

My Raleigh is completely identical to Sheldon's Raleigh Roadster, even to the extent of being green (though it should be black). Although perfectly useable, at the moment it's hardly worth photographing - you've probably guessed that it's a restoration project, and there's hardly a part on it that couldn't be made better (except for the 26in stainless steel Westrick rims and spokes and amber-walled tyres, which are excellent). I come from 30 years involvement with classic cars (my daily driver these past five years until recently has been a 1961 Humber Hawk) so the spanner-wielding, striping and painting, chroming where necessary and sourcing parts is something that holds no terrors for me.

Despite my request for sources of spares, I prefer to restore the bike's existing parts to retain as much originality as possible.

I've just realised that no one has commented on regular magazines for bikes such as these. Is that because there isn't anything?

There is

http://www.classicbicyclenews.com/

though that has a focus on old American ballooners. It may not have much on English roadsters by comparison.

Bah! We likes em dirty.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/IMG_1009.jpghttp://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/IMG_7827.jpghttp://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/IMG_5674.jpg

Same here! At last year's Goodwood Revival, the classic car gleam'n'polish-'fest held each year at the old 1950s-'60s race circuit in southern England, this Bedford CA was easily my favourite in the classics-only car park. It was completely road-legal.

I can now see what the protocol here is. When it stops raining, I'll get the bike into some light and take a few snaps.
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http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=274939

The publishing business is NOT doing all that well these days, so seeing a "NEW" publication start for OLD vintage bikes...don't hold your breath. The WEB is the place to go these days. Fewer and fewer folks are like you today as well, it is a disposable society. Use it, break it, throw it away. It would be nice if BICYCLING Magazine would do a section based on OLD SCHOOL maint. and restoration...but their main emphasis is what is NEW and shiny. They DO touch on old bikes once in a while, but not to a great extent from what I have seen (guess that doesn't pay their bills)

While trawling eBay I managed to net this Spare Parts and Repair List for Raleigh, Rudge, Robin Hood & Humber Bicycles; Sturmey-Archer Hub, Gears & Brakes; Dynohub & Dyno-Luxe Lighting and Equipment; Workshop Tools.

I guess you all probably have one but this is an exciting find for me as a newbie - it has photo illustrations of all the parts that go into the items listed above, together with (on the facing page) part numbers, how many in a carton and the price in pounds, shillings and pence. There's other stuff in it too – for instance, at the front, a list that describes the various models at that time, the model type number within the range and the colour schemes available for each of those. Mainly, I can now identify parts with some accuracy. For instance, I never knew until now that rod brakes are, in fact, called roller brakes. Also, I never appreciated how many parts go into making even one ordinary bike!

The publication seems to be early 1950s, so ideal for me with my 1952 Tourer. On these sort of things there is often a manufacturer's or printer's code in small type somewhere that reveals what year it was printed - in some cases the month too - but on this there's nothing. - Paul
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http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=275192

The one standard that I should probably warn you about is that, unlike vintage automobiles and motorcycles, repainting a vintage bicycle is usually considered one of the ultimate "thou shalt nots". Cleaning the bike within an inch of it's life, polishing, soaking chrome is oxalic acid is all standard and proper. I was amused to discover over a discussion with my Barbie-collecting sister that restoring vintage bicycles has more in common with restoring vintage Barbies dolls than any motor vehicle. Yes, you can repaint it and find reproduction decals (hopefully), but the bike in original clean condition will probably have a better market value.

And no, we don't normally request pictures. We 'effing demand them! I'm kinda amazed you've gotten as much advice as you have before posting any pictures of the bike.

Spend a few days in the "love of English three speeds" thread. Its the most complete, yet pleasently jumbled info site on the web for the three speeds. That and sheldon is about all you need.

Judging by the number of pics on this Forum of bikes being resprayed, I guess the unofficial standard is regularly ignored! Generally speaking though, I agree with what you say, and I like to see old cars/bikes with a bit of patina of age, some evidence of regular use. It gives them more character. This statement doesn't apply to some women I've known.


But the deed has already been done, since the paint on my Raleigh is not its original colour and, worse, has been badly applied by hand, all over. Thick, patchy, with wobbly fuzzy-edged pinstriping. This basically decent bike has survived this far and deserves better. Some pics once I've photographed it at the weekend - try to hold on until then!


I attended the Goodwood car show I mentioned earlier in the thread was with someone from Montpelier... but the one in Fr, not VA.

I have had luck using a rag and acetone to remove old housepaint covering original paint. It may not leave all the old details from the original (striping, etc) but if you work slowly and carefully, it is possible to remove housepaint from original paint and still have a fair bit of original left. I've also used oven cleaner, spraying it on and leaving it for a very short period, then rubbing off. I think I like the acetone better though.

Depending on what it was painted with I have had decent luck using Goof Off watch it around where your decals might be, but it will take a lot of things off. I just used some on a 1947 Singer 201-2 sewing machine that my MIL brought in. Some idiot had spray painted the cabinet and about half the machine.:mad: Took the spray paint right off without damaging the original finish, cabinet is another issue.:notamused:

Aaron:)

I've taken some pics of my Raleigh Superbe. Though described as a 1952 bike, the first part of the serial number (at the top of the seat tube, and the only part legible) suggests it's a late 1950 or a 1951 bike. Once I've stripped the paint more characters might become readable.


The pictures are an aide memoire for when I reassemble the bike some months hence, though I include them here since I now know that this Forum likes - or should I say Demands, with a cap-D - to see pictures, and ain't satisfied until it gets 'em. While I generally agree that the Patina of Use is a desirable quality to be seen on old machinery, you'll surely agree when seeing these pics that the quality of paintwork slapped on here does not do this bike any favours. And especially not when you consider that this bike should be black, not green.


There are a couple of questions. First, the tyres are Made-in-France Michelins, but what sort of valve is that? It's not a Presta and it's not a Schrader. Secondly, the bike was supplied to the Suffolk UK police, which is why it ought to be black, but for a police bike would Raleigh bother with the detailed paintwork (bronze and red stripes, etc) that you see on 'civilian' versions of the Superbe, or would it just leave the bike plain black all over? I appreciate that this Forum has more US visitors than UK ones, but detailed knowledge about bikes knows no international constraints. I would imagine there's no definitive police livery, which is handy for me since it means I don't have to worry about getting it exactly right.


Chain guard logo
Front brake
Front light
Front mudguard/fender
Sturmey Archer chain
Handlebars and front forks
Superbe left-side view
Light bracket
Paint on chain guard
Horrible Raleigh logo
Rear reflector
Rear stays
Suberbe right-side view 1
Superbe right-side view 2
Superbe right-side view 3
Brooks saddle
Sturmey Archer 3- and 4-speed trigger/shifter
Mystery valve

That paint is horrible, abeit done with considerable effort to replicate the pinstriping. I'd let it wear out, there are reproduction decals for Raleigh Superbes available on ebay among other places.

This is a very helpful visual guide to the decals and pinstriping that went into Raleigh Sports over the years.

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_ralsport_visID.html

The valve you see there is called a Woods Valve, it has the same diameter at the rim as Schrader valves, so if it bothers you that much, you can change it for one of those. They take a presta pump and are really nice since you simply apply the pump to the valve and pump away with abandon. Speaking of which, does the pump work? I've heard that they have a leather insert that tends to dry out, so wetting it with a touch of oil might restore the seal.

Are those tires and rims 26 x 1 3/8 or 26 x 1 1/4? The latter is rather harder to find.

There's a difference of opinion among the C&Vers, as far as whether restoration consists of "making it like it was" or "making it all better than it was." If that was my bike, my first focus would be a teardown and re-assembly, repacking all the bearings and taking stock of condition.

I'm not a classic car guy, but the man across the street from us owned an early Austin-Healy 6-cylinder. I think he had it since 1960 or so, but I loved waking up to hearing him warm the car up for his trip to work every morning. What a great sound!

Hi Paul, thanks for the pictures.
What would be the downside of doing the whole "take it apart completely, cleaning and greasing, putting it back together and riding it" scenario? Maybe a day or so of work and it is ready for the next 20 years. You'll get to know how it rides and fits you and its quirks.
You can always strip it down and paint it once you decide it is going to be a keeper.
I like it how it looks now.

The paint truly is horrible… though I wouldn't describe the effort in applying it 'considerable'! Quite the opposite, from the looks of things!

Many thanks for the info on the Woods valve. With regards to the pump, I've no idea if it works - it hasn't occurred to me to try it (the tyres keep their pressure). In any case it looks a bit more modern that the bike, so I'll replace it with an older style and make that one work. And the Kurt Kaminer website is a great help.

And here's a thing: I've not actually ridden the bike at all, not even just sat on it. That only occurred to me the other day, and it's happened that way by accident. I collected the bike and had a chat with the previous owners, but then it started to rain and I put it straight in the MPV. Arriving home in torrential rain, it went straight in the garage, and then just about each time I've been down there to check it out, it's been raining again, or dark. This is England in the summer/autumn, so no surprises there. Now that I've realised that this is the situation I'm of the frame of mind to deliberately not ride it until I've finished it.

The rims are 26x1.3/8, stainless steel Westricks, which I understand are Raleigh's 'own brand' based on Westood rims and Eastrisk rims.

I very much understand the two main different viewpoints, which is common in the classic car world I've dabbled in for many years. The meticulous restoration to better than it left the factory is a source of wonder, and I have no problem with that because I understand the dedication and long-term striving as well as understanding that it's the doing rather than the end result that is often the most important; sometimes it's a sort of therapy. And I don't even mind a 'chequebook restoration' - a wealthy owner might just throw money at it without lifting a spanner themselves, but someone has had to do the work and that someone spent a long time learning and practicing how to do it and I'm glad they get suitably rewarded.

I couldn't do that myself since I don't have the patience to do it in the first place and I certainly don't have the money. Also, I wouldn't then be able to keep it in cotton wool and be a bag of nerves. My guitar tutor Chas has an exceptional collection of guitars, but every one of them is in first-class condition, not a mark on them. For him, that's how things have to be; not for him even the fashionable faux-distressed look straight out of the factory. He's had some time-consuming adventures on eBay, I can tell you! In fact, if you offered him the Strat that Hendrix played at Woodstock, he'd probably point to a few dings and scratches and the upside-down stringing and shake his head regretfully.

The other point of view is that you buy cheaply and just keep the thing running. I lean towards that since that's more 'me' and - more to the point - I never been able to afford to do otherwise.

Since 1980 and until last year, my daily driver has always been a classic car - a variety of Triumphs, a variety of Wolseleys and then - for five years until last year - a 1960 Humber Hawk. All were (in fact, still are) at the cheap end of the classic car market. None of them were ever in exceptional condition, and it has to be said that some of them got worse in my ownership. The rapid rise in British fuel prices last year made me change to a more frugal small modern(ish) Ford. But I enjoyed using them all 24/7, rain or shine, and never worried about bumps or scrapes or the fact that the oil needed topping up quite often, and relished taking a spanner to them when need be.

In the past few years, now just turned 60 but having had a TIA a few years ago, I've taken an interest in cycling to get fit. Or rather, to get fitter than I was, and keep it like that. I already have a bike, but I wouldn't say I'm a good and dedicated cyclist in the way I suspect just about everyone else on this forum is! The stamina which for many years stood me in good stead playing soccer, going to the pub, chasing women and working on classic cars has now largely gone, so my other bike with it's aluminium frame and multiple gears is the one I go riding on. You can lift it with one finger. But with 21 gears I still get puffed out going up even moderate hills and readily get off and push, so you'll understand that this much heavier Raleigh Superbe with only four gears represents a technical project that's centred on old mechanical things, and not a means of acquiring a bike.

My only aim is to return the Superbe to pretty much how it was in its working life and improve its current miserable lot while in my care. That's what I'd want for me; why not my bike as well? I'm sure that the results of my efforts will not be right in detail (due to ignorance) and, overall, most certainly not as good in quality as when it left the Raleigh factory (due to lack of skill)… but this is not something I'm going to lose any sleep over. And returning to the topic of not being able to please everyone, I long ago learned not to lose any sleep over that, either! :-)

I'll probably just ride it around town, or on our regular Sunday morning ride to Greenwich on the banks of the Thames. The route follows the river and the railway, so it's pretty much flat all the way, and there's always a pastry and coffee awaiting…

Hmmmm... wrote too much, I think...

How far do you want to go with it? A full, ground-up restoration will take a lot of time and effort. We're talking stripping to bare metal, matching paint and disassembling the bike. It sounds like you want to avoid that.

I think the first step is to assess just what you have. Look for missing parts, rust, etc. If you have all the basic parts, then maybe it's time to explore what the underlying condition of the bike is. That overpaint may be some kind of brushed-on housepaint. It is possible to strip this and see what is below, but it's tricky and time consuming. Paint thinner can do this, but it takes a long time. Acetone on a rag is an option, then you rub until you're almost through the house paint and see what begins to peak through. If you hit nice, original paint, then it may be worth doing the bike like that. It is possible to do the same using spray oven cleaner on a rag (Easy Off for example), but be careful because with will readily go down to bare metal if you attack it too much.

So I guess my next step would be to explore what you have and what's under that paint, as described above.

You didn't write too much. I actually enjoyed reading it. As I too am new into the world of C & V. Although I have no information for you, I will give you this...enjoy what you are doing and do it for you...it seems like you are headed in a direction that you want, and that is good. I have discovered that working on bikes, any of them...and none of mine are anything special...is very therapeutical, and enjoyable. I get to use my hands, my mind, my tools, and be outside in the garage. I wish you good luck with your bike...and do keep us updated.