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Frame ID. British?

Old 10-18-12, 01:38 PM
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jeffpepperdine
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Frame ID. British?

Anyone care to comment on the below bicycle? It's listed locally and I may inquire. Looks like some nicely filed long point lugs. Cable stop braze-ons for barcons. Paint looks like the raleigh mink blue, but I'm pretty sure its not a professional.

Vintage Bicycle Frame - Made in England - Reynolds 531 Tubing - Campagnolo Dropouts - Very Clean - Some minor rust around seatpost bolt area - Touring Style






Much appreciated.
- Jeff

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Old 10-18-12, 03:36 PM
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its got a few of the same details (campy end same lugs 531) as my early 70s holdsworth mistral i think the fork crown is different and it certainly doesnt have those barcon braze ons but maybe it was an option i think the mistral was supposed to be a "touring" bike of some degree
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Old 10-18-12, 03:53 PM
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Hi Jeff
The lugs and the fork crown are exactly like my 70-71 Claud Butler. Claud Butler was bought out by Holdsworth in the 60's.
That frame looks newer than 1970 to me.
Doug
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Old 10-18-12, 04:15 PM
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Thanks 10speedterror,

The lugs do look the same, I think they may be a prugnat version.



Looks like a vagner fork crown. Not sure if that helps.

Any thoughts on dating it? Late 70's given the bottle bosses, but no cable guides?
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Old 10-18-12, 04:50 PM
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yeah they are fairly common lugs (I THINK) and a friend of mine has a later mistral with really ugly lugs and poor craftsmanship just overall not as pretty as mine but i know holdsworth owned a few of the big early names like butler and others that they bought out when the firms went under so im assuming the later model butlers (and others) look like a holdsworth just with a butler label

but if i had to guess i would say the first half 70s or earlier ive been told that style of drop out went out of favor by 73 for MOST companys, but that doesnt mean people wernt still using them

and water mounts can always be added id guess its a repaint since theres no decals

is there any kind of serial number?

certainly people on here that know a lot more than I
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Old 10-18-12, 05:00 PM
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I sent an email earlier today requesting serial and had a few other questions. No response yet from the seller. There's a chance that its sold already. I just figured I'd post here to see if anyone recognized it.

- jeff
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Old 10-18-12, 05:12 PM
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well if you do get a chance at it and it doesnt cost you an arm and a leg id say go for it on the chance that it is a mistral mine has the nicest ride of all my bikes
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Old 10-18-12, 09:08 PM
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those are Prugnat lugs and they were very popular with Holdsworth/Claud Bulter models but use by many other builders. The rest of it doesn't look particularly like my Super Mistral (not full wrap nor Brampton-Victor seat stays) and probably a repaint...looks nice, looks British...Cheers!
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Old 10-24-12, 11:32 AM
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Turns out it's still available. He responded that long after the case. haha. I'm not in town, but am sending a friend to go look. Fingers crossed it checks out.

- j
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Old 10-24-12, 11:48 AM
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Definitely merits a look! I would've been down the street first day up if I were still in the 'hood there - or maybe the seller would've made me wait a week, too! No insight on what he's got there, exactly, but well worth a look at the price. Hopefully see some updates here, if it does check out...
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Old 10-24-12, 02:52 PM
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A friend just picked it up for me. I coached him on the phone though checking it out, so hopefully everything works out. Might be a couple of weeks before its in my hands.

7 digit serial (all numbers) on frame and fork.
Made in England decal on the lower seat tube.
Campagnolo Drop-outs.

Thanks for all the help. I'll keep posted.
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Old 10-25-12, 10:03 AM
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So the rust is a little worse than I was expecting, always hard to get a good idea over the phone. Sounds like it might be a candidate for an OA bath. Thoughts?

Any more help with the ID? The high serial number would suggest fairly large company. Is anyone familiar with Holdsworth / Claud Butler serial number conventions? I've peeked through lots of catalogs, but can't seem to find a model that matches the lugs / fork crown / seat stay, let alone has barcon braze ons. Lugs are definitely prugnat spearpoint, and crown is a vanger. Still not sure if its been repainted.

Also, interestingly, the reynolds decal on the seat tube seems to be the pre 73 variant, while the fork decal is the post 73. Fingers crossed that at least the seat tube decal is original.

It was reasonably cheap, and I've got myself a winter project. Will provide more details when the frames in my hands in a couple weeks.








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Old 10-25-12, 10:18 AM
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Assuming the 79 in the serial is a date, then this could very well be a '79 Holdsworth Special or Mistral.




1980 Mistral.
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Old 10-25-12, 11:53 AM
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could be a Holdsworthy product, and the "79" seems like a good clue as to the year, but the serial number doesn't jibe with most of what I've seen published from folks with confirmed Holdsworths/Claud Butlers. However, it's apparently a serial numbering system that's all over the map and not been deciphered yet (AFAIK) so...anything's possible.
Many of the details of your frame match the Holdsworths you show from catalogs, but the forkcrown might not be typical for this late '70s era. More common was a semi-sloping crown, but I wouldn't rule it out on that basis alone.
Holdsworthy was also doing more contract building (for house brands as well as individual custom orders) during this time frame.
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Old 10-26-12, 01:59 PM
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A Bob Jackson of some kind? Maybe?


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Old 10-27-12, 05:51 PM
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I don't think so, only because BJ serial numbers (that I've seen) don't jibe with this, either. I'm sure of one thing: It's British, but I don't know if there's anything on it to link to a specific builder.
Call it a "Mystery" and enjoy it...maybe an A. Christie or P.D. James or A.C. Doyle decal would work?
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