Campagnolo Rims + Columbus SL = Frame Shudder and Crazy Vibration ??? Why**********
10-24-12, 08:22 PM
#1
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Campagnolo Rims + Columbus SL = Frame Shudder and Crazy Vibration ??? Why**********
Ok... sooo I just finished fully restoring my Rossin Super Record Road bike...
Before you say it I have already ordered Vittoria Gum Wall tires to replace those red ones... I have also lowered the brake levers to where they belong and replaced the bar tape with black perforated swede... and I replaced the front and rear derailleurs with the proper Super Record ones
.... I know.. I know...
Here's the problem... when I apply the brakes, right at the end before the bike stops the brakes shudder on the front rim and cause the fork / frame to vigorously vibrate, and Quite a bit I might add...
I tried replacing the pads with new Kool Stop ones... even worse...
I pulled the whole brake bad / cartridge right off of a DA 7800 front caliper and installed it onto the campy monoplaner ones (fit quite nicely) but same problem...
I tried swapping out the front monoplaner for another (I have two sets)... same problem...
I asked my bike mechanic (he is the most experienced mechanic I know) and he said that it is just the way ceramic rims are...
I'm not very pleased and just can't ride it....
IS this the way it is???? Really********** there has to be something I can do... those are NOS campy clincher rims newly laces to near NOS C-Record hubs... they were NOT cheap.... I really do want them to work...
Is it because they are monoplaner calipers maybe???
Help!!!! (Pics below)
Thanks!!!
.
.
.
Before you say it I have already ordered Vittoria Gum Wall tires to replace those red ones... I have also lowered the brake levers to where they belong and replaced the bar tape with black perforated swede... and I replaced the front and rear derailleurs with the proper Super Record ones
.... I know.. I know...
Here's the problem... when I apply the brakes, right at the end before the bike stops the brakes shudder on the front rim and cause the fork / frame to vigorously vibrate, and Quite a bit I might add...
I tried replacing the pads with new Kool Stop ones... even worse...
I pulled the whole brake bad / cartridge right off of a DA 7800 front caliper and installed it onto the campy monoplaner ones (fit quite nicely) but same problem...
I tried swapping out the front monoplaner for another (I have two sets)... same problem...
I asked my bike mechanic (he is the most experienced mechanic I know) and he said that it is just the way ceramic rims are...
I'm not very pleased and just can't ride it....
IS this the way it is???? Really********** there has to be something I can do... those are NOS campy clincher rims newly laces to near NOS C-Record hubs... they were NOT cheap.... I really do want them to work...
Is it because they are monoplaner calipers maybe???
Help!!!! (Pics below)
Thanks!!!
.
.
.
Last edited by Shutter; 10-24-12 at 08:26 PM.
10-24-12, 08:28 PM
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just the basic Super Record replacement cartridges and cut a groove in the back to make them work with the monoplaners...
Which ones should I buy???
Which ones should I buy???
10-24-12, 08:33 PM
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Are these the ones I need? (Green for Ceramic) Do they make them for old school campy calipers? Or will I have to use my Dura Ace 7800 Cartridges?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kool-Stop-Du...item27c9275527
If this solves the problem then what did riders do in the 80's??? did they just accept this vibration as "it's just the way it is" ???
/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kool-Stop-Du...item27c9275527
If this solves the problem then what did riders do in the 80's??? did they just accept this vibration as "it's just the way it is" ???
/
10-24-12, 09:00 PM
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First of all,....Your Rossin looks Gorgeous!
And regarding your shuddring brakes, did you make sure that your brake pads are properly toed in so it contacts the rim first at the leading edge of the pads? You might also want to check whether your headset is properly adjusted so it does not amplify any small amount of vibration that is produced by the front brake pads that cannot be totally eliminated by any adjustment and/or toe in.
I really suspect too that some frames, because of their material and design have a tendency to amplify brake screeching/shuddering despite of any adjustment or different brake pads you might try on them (maybe because of harmonic properties of the frame). In those cases you can just try to minimize the screeching and shuddering, but eliminating them entirely will be very hard to do.
Just my theories.....
Chombi
And regarding your shuddring brakes, did you make sure that your brake pads are properly toed in so it contacts the rim first at the leading edge of the pads? You might also want to check whether your headset is properly adjusted so it does not amplify any small amount of vibration that is produced by the front brake pads that cannot be totally eliminated by any adjustment and/or toe in.
I really suspect too that some frames, because of their material and design have a tendency to amplify brake screeching/shuddering despite of any adjustment or different brake pads you might try on them (maybe because of harmonic properties of the frame). In those cases you can just try to minimize the screeching and shuddering, but eliminating them entirely will be very hard to do.
Just my theories.....
Chombi
10-24-12, 09:23 PM
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I would fit a different front wheel and see if the problem persists. One with a raw aluminum brake track.
By the way, Campagnolo instructs to assemble the headset and install the stem and then do the final adjustment of the headset last.
Campagnolo monoplaners are the only Campagnolo brake I have worked with that had a shudder, at the time I wrote it off to a tolerance stack in the assembly of the brake.
Fresh rims and fresh pads may not be helping the system. I would sand the pads to remove the "skin" of the pads.
This might be an application of the sintered pads Campagnolo made for a time and Modolo pioneered.
By the way, Campagnolo instructs to assemble the headset and install the stem and then do the final adjustment of the headset last.
Campagnolo monoplaners are the only Campagnolo brake I have worked with that had a shudder, at the time I wrote it off to a tolerance stack in the assembly of the brake.
Fresh rims and fresh pads may not be helping the system. I would sand the pads to remove the "skin" of the pads.
This might be an application of the sintered pads Campagnolo made for a time and Modolo pioneered.
10-24-12, 09:53 PM
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Anodized rims suck until you get a little wear on them and the pads...or...swap the blocks out for modern pad holders and put a more aggressive pad in...or...go to a non-anodized rim.
10-24-12, 09:57 PM
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just run em for awhile and if it doesn't go away get some pads that have a rounded washer so you can toe them in properly
10-24-12, 10:01 PM
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I second adjusting your toe-in. That has always fixed it for me.
I had a great diagram, but can't seem to find it now. I think that they should be about 1cm "toed-in" from centerline if I recall correctly.
I had a great diagram, but can't seem to find it now. I think that they should be about 1cm "toed-in" from centerline if I recall correctly.
10-24-12, 11:02 PM
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I've had really good luck on my Campy NR calipers with these KoolStops:
https://www.koolstop.com/english/crosspad.html
The Dura2 pads fit them (IIRC, check with KoolStop if you go this route), and are available in the green compound for ceramics. These holders allow toe in adjustment. I previously had used both the salmon and black Campy NR inserts in the stock holders, and while I could get them quiet with careful toe in adjustment, they would occasionally still squeal. Braking is also better with the Cross pad/holders than either of the NR inserts.
The guy I conversed with (email) from KS was very helpful... they might even configure a set for you with the green pads...
https://www.koolstop.com/english/crosspad.html
The Dura2 pads fit them (IIRC, check with KoolStop if you go this route), and are available in the green compound for ceramics. These holders allow toe in adjustment. I previously had used both the salmon and black Campy NR inserts in the stock holders, and while I could get them quiet with careful toe in adjustment, they would occasionally still squeal. Braking is also better with the Cross pad/holders than either of the NR inserts.
The guy I conversed with (email) from KS was very helpful... they might even configure a set for you with the green pads...
10-25-12, 05:51 AM
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I can see why you don't want to change the rims! Stand out looking bike!
10-25-12, 07:31 AM
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I would fit a different front wheel and see if the problem persists. One with a raw aluminum brake track.
By the way, Campagnolo instructs to assemble the headset and install the stem and then do the final adjustment of the headset last.
Campagnolo monoplaners are the only Campagnolo brake I have worked with that had a shudder, at the time I wrote it off to a tolerance stack in the assembly of the brake.
Fresh rims and fresh pads may not be helping the system. I would sand the pads to remove the "skin" of the pads.
This might be an application of the sintered pads Campagnolo made for a time and Modolo pioneered.
By the way, Campagnolo instructs to assemble the headset and install the stem and then do the final adjustment of the headset last.
Campagnolo monoplaners are the only Campagnolo brake I have worked with that had a shudder, at the time I wrote it off to a tolerance stack in the assembly of the brake.
Fresh rims and fresh pads may not be helping the system. I would sand the pads to remove the "skin" of the pads.
This might be an application of the sintered pads Campagnolo made for a time and Modolo pioneered.
I can't say that I recall ever experienceing a shudder with my Monoplanors but they are designed more to modulate speed rather than lock up and 'throw you over the bars' like most brakes. There isn't alot of adjustment but while you scuffing the pads and chainging the front wheel make sure everything is snug with the center bolt.
I also agre this is a beautiful bike!
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“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
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10-25-12, 07:42 AM
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Not sure I agree with needing special pads for ceramic rims. I've been using regular Shimano pads on my Mavic CD ceramamics for nearly 20 years and the performance has been excellent.
Might be specific to Campy rims. For a brief period, I ran a Campy Hardrox Omega front rim and it shuddered like crazy. Don't remember if it was ceramic. Agree about swapping out another wheel to narrow down the problem.
Something else to check would be the headset adjustment.
Great job on the bike - looks fantastic.
Might be specific to Campy rims. For a brief period, I ran a Campy Hardrox Omega front rim and it shuddered like crazy. Don't remember if it was ceramic. Agree about swapping out another wheel to narrow down the problem.
Something else to check would be the headset adjustment.
Great job on the bike - looks fantastic.
10-25-12, 08:32 AM
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Not sure I agree with needing special pads for ceramic rims. I've been using regular Shimano pads on my Mavic CD ceramamics for nearly 20 years and the performance has been excellent.
Might be specific to Campy rims. For a brief period, I ran a Campy Hardrox Omega front rim and it shuddered like crazy. Don't remember if it was ceramic. Agree about swapping out another wheel to narrow down the problem.
Something else to check would be the headset adjustment.
Great job on the bike - looks fantastic.
Might be specific to Campy rims. For a brief period, I ran a Campy Hardrox Omega front rim and it shuddered like crazy. Don't remember if it was ceramic. Agree about swapping out another wheel to narrow down the problem.
Something else to check would be the headset adjustment.
Great job on the bike - looks fantastic.
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Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
10-25-12, 09:06 AM
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10-25-12, 10:15 AM
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+1, systematically swap out the wheels, brakes and pads to determine the source.
10-25-12, 10:32 AM
#19
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I had a set of the Monoplaner brakes on a Merckx w/ Wolber Profil 18 rims & IIRC...they did the same thing. I however, sold the bike B4 I found a cure. Probably doesn't help you much, but I formed an opinion about the MP brakes from then on. As much as I liked the design, I'd imagine a set of Dual-Pivots would out perform them & offer up better stopping power.
10-25-12, 01:13 PM
#21
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I used a quite Abrasive brake pad , to get thru the Hard CD Anodizing smoothly.
a month of winter wet downhills did it..
then I went back to the standard compound.
Different Brake, Different Rim And Bike, so , you know,
YMMV..
you only stop a race bike after the finish line.. other than that you are fine..
Maybe, for JRA, the ceramic rims are overdoing it..
a month of winter wet downhills did it..
then I went back to the standard compound.
Different Brake, Different Rim And Bike, so , you know,
YMMV..
you only stop a race bike after the finish line.. other than that you are fine..
Maybe, for JRA, the ceramic rims are overdoing it..
Last edited by fietsbob; 10-25-12 at 01:21 PM.
10-26-12, 04:24 AM
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Wow! Thanks for all the great replies!!!
And thanks for the comments! The bike was a lot of work (looks better with gum walls and super record group now)
I ordered a set of green ceramic inserts for some dura ace cartridge holders I have as spares and I will try them.
Headset is tight but I will double check...
Like suggested I will throw on another rim to compare... I can use the ultegra 6700 rim from my Pinarello with a machined brake surface to see if that's the problem...
If indeed it is the moboplaners I may swap back to the proper super record single pivot calipers that should be on there
I will run some tests this weekend and post the results
Thanks!!!!!!!
And thanks for the comments! The bike was a lot of work (looks better with gum walls and super record group now)
I ordered a set of green ceramic inserts for some dura ace cartridge holders I have as spares and I will try them.
Headset is tight but I will double check...
Like suggested I will throw on another rim to compare... I can use the ultegra 6700 rim from my Pinarello with a machined brake surface to see if that's the problem...
If indeed it is the moboplaners I may swap back to the proper super record single pivot calipers that should be on there
I will run some tests this weekend and post the results
Thanks!!!!!!!
10-26-12, 04:09 PM
#23
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Update....
I am apparently wrong, I have been told that the rims are annodized not ceramic?? still unsure..
I replaced the front wheel with another that has a machined brake surface... problem gone...
sooo it's not the monoplaners or the headset... it's the rim itself....
I tried swapping out to the dura ace 7800 pads / holders and they are ever so slightly better, but the flutter vibration in the fork is still quite terrible...
The green ceramic pads are already in the mail so I will try them when they arrive... It seems that there isn't much I can do here??
any other suggestions??
I am apparently wrong, I have been told that the rims are annodized not ceramic?? still unsure..
I replaced the front wheel with another that has a machined brake surface... problem gone...
sooo it's not the monoplaners or the headset... it's the rim itself....
I tried swapping out to the dura ace 7800 pads / holders and they are ever so slightly better, but the flutter vibration in the fork is still quite terrible...
The green ceramic pads are already in the mail so I will try them when they arrive... It seems that there isn't much I can do here??
any other suggestions??
10-26-12, 04:21 PM
#24
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Update....
I am apparently wrong, I have been told that the rims are annodized not ceramic?? still unsure..
I replaced the front wheel with another that has a machined brake surface... problem gone...
sooo it's not the monoplaners or the headset... it's the rim itself....
I tried swapping out to the dura ace 7800 pads / holders and they are ever so slightly better, but the flutter vibration in the fork is still quite terrible...
The green ceramic pads are already in the mail so I will try them when they arrive... It seems that there isn't much I can do here??
any other suggestions??
I am apparently wrong, I have been told that the rims are annodized not ceramic?? still unsure..
I replaced the front wheel with another that has a machined brake surface... problem gone...
sooo it's not the monoplaners or the headset... it's the rim itself....
I tried swapping out to the dura ace 7800 pads / holders and they are ever so slightly better, but the flutter vibration in the fork is still quite terrible...
The green ceramic pads are already in the mail so I will try them when they arrive... It seems that there isn't much I can do here??
any other suggestions??
The one from Buldogge is the right one.
Have you done this yet?
"Definitely toe them in...and...get modern holders to facilitate it. "
This will end the problem.
10-26-12, 05:51 PM
#25
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I've had really good luck on my Campy NR calipers with these KoolStops:
https://www.koolstop.com/english/crosspad.html
The Dura2 pads fit them (IIRC, check with KoolStop if you go this route), and are available in the green compound for ceramics. These holders allow toe in adjustment. I previously had used both the salmon and black Campy NR inserts in the stock holders, and while I could get them quiet with careful toe in adjustment, they would occasionally still squeal. Braking is also better with the Cross pad/holders than either of the NR inserts.
https://www.koolstop.com/english/crosspad.html
The Dura2 pads fit them (IIRC, check with KoolStop if you go this route), and are available in the green compound for ceramics. These holders allow toe in adjustment. I previously had used both the salmon and black Campy NR inserts in the stock holders, and while I could get them quiet with careful toe in adjustment, they would occasionally still squeal. Braking is also better with the Cross pad/holders than either of the NR inserts.