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Campy Ergopower 8 spd on a 126mm Shimano 7 spd

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Campy Ergopower 8 spd on a 126mm Shimano 7 spd

Old 11-09-12, 07:54 AM
  #1  
masi61
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Campy Ergopower 8 spd on a 126mm Shimano 7 spd

Anybody try 8 speed ergopower integrated shifters on a vintage 126 mm road frame? I heard that 8 speed campy matches 7 speed Shimano. Life's too short to NOT try it. Been E-baying and now own a very pretty C-Record (?) lever set & rear derailleur that I intend to match up with a Dura Ace 7 speed freewheel +/or Uniglide cassette? How well can I expect it to work? Please discuss freely

Last edited by masi61; 11-13-12 at 03:19 AM. Reason: corrected spelling error
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Old 11-09-12, 07:57 AM
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I think I would have purchased the freewheels or cassettes from each maker and measured before buying the other parts.
Be nice to know if it works.
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Old 11-09-12, 08:02 AM
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repechage is not throwing water on your fire; he's just stating that matching up ahead of time works every time.

However, if you have the parts you describe on hand, it's hard to ignore a fine DA hubset/wheelset....if you have yet to build the wheels, his option is probably the best. If you have the wheelset already, and limited funds, well, keep reading.

The spacing is close enough that it will work fairly well. There's enough slop in a 7/8 chain to do it, also. You'll just have 1 shift that does nothing. Don't expect perfection, but in a world of finicky 9, 10, and 11-sp adjustments, the 7/8 Shimano spacing is pretty darn close to 8-sp Campy spacing.

I've run the 8-sp versions of each, interchangeable, with no problems but noise, often compensated for by shifting past the noisy cog, then back "down" onto it. For "perfection," I ran some Wheels Mfg Campy 8-sp spacers on a Shimano 8-sp cassette, and it was spot-on, which it was supposed to be. My bike situation changed, and BF member whatwolf charmed me out of them for her Eddy.

My opinion is that an 8-sp Campy shifter/RD with a 7-sp Shimano cassette would work a little better than the same setup with an 8-sp Shimano cassette, because the spacing differences that "add up" across the cogset would only affect 6 shifts, not 7. If you are good at adjusting the RD, you can bias it towards the cogs you use the most and mitigate, or maybe even eliminate, any "noisy" spots. It's workable.

What you are wanting to do, in effect, is marry your second-cousin:
1) Shimano 7-sp spacing = Shimano 8-sp spacing.
2) Shimano 8-sp spacing <=> Campagnolo 8-sp spacing.
Therefore:
3) Shimano 7-sp spacing <=> Campy 8-sp spacing.

The best solution, since you've got nice Campy stuff and a nice Shimano rear hub:
1) Shimano 7sp spacing = Shimano 8-sp spacing.
2) Wheels Mfg spacers = Excellent Campy 8-sp shifting on Shimano 8-sp cassettes.
Therefore:
3) Buy the $60 Wheels Mfg spacers and use them with a 7-sp Shimano cassette.

Balance the additional $60 + on-hand parts vs. a Campy rear hub/wheel and 8-sp cassette.

If I had a Dura Ace 7400 freehub wheelset, that's exactly what I'd do.
I'd buy the $60 spacers, run them with a Shimano 7-sp cassette
(or 7 cogs of a Shimano 8-sp cassette) on your DA 7-sp freehub.

You'll still have a dead shift, but the other 6 should be right on.

I've got an 8-sp Chorus wheelset/cassette, by the way...........just sayin....

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 11-09-12 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-09-12, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
The spacing is close enough that it will work pretty well. There's enough slop in a 7/8 chain to do it, also. You'll just have 1 shift that does nothing. Don't expect perfection, but in a world of finicky 9, 10, and 11-sp adjustments, the 7/8 Shimano spacing is pretty darn close to 8-sp Campy spacing.

I've run the 8-sp versions of each, interchangeable, with no problem. For "perfection," I ran some Wheels Mfg Campy 8-sp spacers on a Shimano 8-sp cassette, and it was spot-on. My opinion is the an 8-sp Campy shifter/RD with a 7-sp Shimano cassette would work a little better than the 8-sp Shimano cassette, because the spacing differences that "add up" across the cogset would only affect 6 shifts, not 7. If you are good at adjusting the RD, you can bias it towards the cogs you use the most and mitigate, or maybe even eliminate, any "noisy" spots.
Sweet. These vintage rides are a hobby anyway. My goal is to have slick, classy shifting on my older road frames so I probably won't run more than 7 cogs.
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Old 11-09-12, 08:20 AM
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I know this doesn't exactly answer your question, but I have Campy 9 speed ergo's shifting Shimano 8 speed derailleur and freewheel, and it works flawlessly.
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Old 11-09-12, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm
I know this doesn't exactly answer your question, but I have Campy 9 speed ergo's shifting Shimano 8 speed derailleur and freewheel, and it works flawlessly.
Does this mean that you have an extra 'click' or do you just try to remember which gear you are in?
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Old 11-09-12, 08:50 AM
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I was using the following combo with excellent shifting:
  • 1st generation Record Ergos
  • 8s Chorus (I think) RD
  • 7s SunRace HG 13-25t freewheel
  • SRAM PC-870 chain

Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
1) Shimano 7-sp spacing = Shimano 8-sp spacing.
I would love to believe you, Robbie, but I don't think they are the same. They certainly look very close and they may, indeed, be close enough not to matter. The combination above is the second best (very close second) Shimergo combination I have used. The very best is Campagnolo 10s Ergos to Shimano 8s cassette with Shimano SIS RD. If you are correct that Shimano 7 spacing equals Shimano 8 spacing then I should be able to use:
  • Campagnolo 10s Ergos
  • Shimano SIS RD
  • Shimano 7 speed freewheel/cassette
  • 8 speed chain

This would please me very much as I'm finishing up a CX build with two wheelsets. The tubular set uses a 135mm Ultegra freehub, so that's easy; use an 8s cassette. The clincher set, however, uses a Phil Wood 135mm freewheel hub and there's room for a 7 speed freewheel, but not an 8 speed. I would love to be able switch between wheelsets with minimal adjustment of the drivetrain. Alternatively, I could have a different axle installed in the PW hub, but that's an expense I'd rather avoid.
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Old 11-09-12, 08:53 AM
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Robbie, I think you have it all confused
Shimano 7s spacing = 5.0 mm
Campy 8s spacing = 5.0 mm
(But Shimano 8s spacing = 4.8mm, which is the "extra" [unneeded] factor I think you're throwing in this equation)

Short answer is yes, it will index perfectly, and you'll need to limit out one Ergo shift position with your derailleur limit screws.
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Old 11-09-12, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jet sanchEz
Does this mean that you have an extra 'click' or do you just try to remember which gear you are in?
The shifters have the potential for another click, but the derailleur does not (edit: which is basically what Ex Pres just said).

As for what gear I'm in, I can never remember anyway. That's why I prefer IGH bikes, or at least bikes with only one shifter. More than one shifter just confuses me.
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Old 11-09-12, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd
I was using the following combo with excellent shifting:
  • 1st generation Record Ergos
  • 8s Chorus (I think) RD
  • 7s SunRace HG 13-25t freewheel
  • SRAM PC-870 chain

I would love to believe you, Robbie, but I don't think they are the same. They certainly look very close and they may, indeed, be close enough not to matter.

You're right, they're a little different. In my experience, I've put 8-sp Shimano STI's on several 7-sp bikes, no issues, and since I've interchanged 8-sp wheels between Shimano and Campy, I assumed the compatibility would carry over. You generally have some noise issues.

The combination above is the second best (very close second) Shimergo combination I have used. The very best is Campagnolo 10s Ergos to Shimano 8s cassette with Shimano SIS RD. If you are correct that Shimano 7 spacing equals Shimano 8 spacing then I should be able to use:

  • Campagnolo 10s Ergos
  • Shimano SIS RD
  • Shimano 7 speed freewheel/cassette
  • 8 speed chain

    Yeah, I guess that is almost like going the third-cousin route, probably wrong, even in Kentucky. There is likely "descending" compatibility as you get further from the fambly. The "if..then" reasoning I used is flawed in that regard. So taking it further may make it even less compatible...

    This would please me very much as I'm finishing up a CX build with two wheelsets. The tubular set uses a 135mm Ultegra freehub, so that's easy; use an 8s cassette. The clincher set, however, uses a Phil Wood 135mm freewheel hub and there's room for a 7 speed freewheel, but not an 8 speed. I would love to be able switch between wheelsets with minimal adjustment of the drivetrain. Alternatively, I could have a different axle installed in the PW hub, but that's an expense I'd rather avoid.
These corrections are duly noted, my bad.

Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Robbie, I think you have it all confused
Shimano 7s spacing = 5.0 mm
Campy 8s spacing = 5.0 mm
(But Shimano 8s spacing = 4.8mm, which is the "extra" [unneeded] factor I think you're throwing in this equation)
Short answer is yes, it will index perfectly, and you'll need to limit out one Ergo shift position with your derailleur limit screws.
For our OP, who wants to run a 7sp cassette with an 8-sp Ergo shifter, let's look at spacing, as Ex-Prez brings his expertise in to further correct my enthusiastic error.

Basically, 8-sp Campy is 5.0mm c-c, per Sheldon. So is 7-sp Shimano, per Sheldon, so on a very basic level, he's fine, and no Wheels Mfg spacers would be needed.

In a secondary sense, you count cogs and spacers, in this case, the Shimano cogs of 1.85 plus the 3.15 spacers equal the 1.9 cogs and 3.1 spacers, so like Ex Pres says.....

In a tertiary sense, you take the 36.9 8-sp Campy width, subtract one spacer at 3.1 and one cog at 1.9 and you're at 31.9, which is the 7-sp Shimano width.

I'm glad I was wrong, in a sense, because now our OP can gear up and ride.
So, you're not marrying your second cousin, just a pretty girl who is exactly the right height for you.

I'm also right, in a slight way, about the spacing being "close enough" combined with the chain slop to be workable. Maybe my way is the second cousin: do it and hope for the best....in a Honey Boo Boo sort of way...

This helps me salvage what little dignity I have left.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 11-09-12 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 11-09-12, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Robbie, I think you have it all confused
Shimano 7s spacing = 5.0 mm
Campy 8s spacing = 5.0 mm
(But Shimano 8s spacing = 4.8mm, which is the "extra" [unneeded] factor I think you're throwing in this equation)

Short answer is yes, it will index perfectly, and you'll need to limit out one Ergo shift position with your derailleur limit screws.
This is what I was thinking. I thought I had read that both had 5.0 mm spacing. So this is what I plan to pursue. This is the rear derailleur that I will be using BTW: https://https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Record-road-bike-rear-derailleur-8-speed-medium-cage-/261121810207?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=fVee2QnL%2F3AMIRhdAd8pAGBQe hE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I've always wanted to try one of these and think it will look good on one of my 2 Gran Criteriums. One follow up question: would this have enough chain wrap to work with a triple crank in the front or maybe a compact double or should I stick with a conventional double up front?

Last edited by masi61; 11-09-12 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 11-09-12, 10:15 AM
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I am running it on my Trek: 8-speed ergo, 8-speed Campy RD, 7 sp Shimano cassette. Perfect fit. I am unsure how different generations of Campy RDs differ in terms of pull, but by old Veloce 8-speed shifts it perfectly.
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Old 11-09-12, 10:18 AM
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and here are the shifters: https://https://www.ebay.com/itm/261121808904?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

They don't say "Record" anywhere on them so I hope they are truly Record. Also, could someone verify if these are clear anodized? I might try a light polish with mother's mag wheel polish if its just polished aluminum.
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Old 11-09-12, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61
This is what I was thinking. I thought I had read that both had 5.0 mm spacing. So this is what I plan to pursue. This is the rear derailleur that I will be using BTW: https://https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Record-road-bike-rear-derailleur-8-speed-medium-cage-/261121810207?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=fVee2QnL%2F3AMIRhdAd8pAGBQe hE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Medium cage, huh?



Originally Posted by masi61
One follow up question: would this have enough chain wrap to work with a triple crank in the front or maybe a compact double or should I stick with a conventional double up front?
Chain wrap is probably in the 26t range. With a 13-25t freehweel you're only left with 14t of wrap. Sure, you could have three chainrings within a 14t range, but it'd be pretty silly. In the setup I described earlier, I was using a Stronglight 49d crank arm with 48/33 TA rings and all was wine and roses.
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Old 11-09-12, 10:30 AM
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When I first setup my Montello I used 9 Speed Chorus shifters with the original Shimano 600 (Tricolor) 7 speed cassette and derailleur and "normal" cable routing. Worked flawlessly.

In an effort to standardize my fleet I recently upgraded the wheelset to a modern 130mm Ultegra hub that is now running an 8 speed cassette and a matching Ultegra derailleur. I have this setup with the same 9 speed Chorus shifters as before but using the "Hubbub" cable routing method. The derailleur was only upgraded because the old one did not support the Hubbub routing. This was a little more finicky to get setup initially, but it runs as quiet as any bike I own, including the straight 10 speed Shimano bike.

The key to getting these setups to work correctly is to make sure you align the indexing perfectly in the middle of the cassette to minimize any small differences between the derailleur throw and the cassette.

This is pretty helpful (but the math in the table seems incorrect).
https://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-libra...gears/shimergo
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Old 11-09-12, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd
Medium cage, huh?





Chain wrap is probably in the 26t range. With a 13-25t freehweel you're only left with 14t of wrap. Sure, you could have three chainrings within a 14t range, but it'd be pretty silly. In the setup I described earlier, I was using a Stronglight 49d crank arm with 48/33 TA rings and all was wine and roses.
That's funny
Doesn't really look like a medium cage, I guess it must be a short cage. Sounds like I'll just stick with a 13-26 cassette with 39/53 chainrings then.
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Old 11-12-12, 03:57 PM
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I'm glad this question came up because I have been wanting to try ergos on my beloved '91 RB-1, which has 7-speed and Shimano 600 (tricolor). I am exploring the same options as the OP.

Since I have a set of spare Mavic OPs with 8-10sp hub that can replace the getting-there wolbers my plan is to either

1) install the 7-speed cassette (I also have a NOS one in a box) with a spacer, and try Campy 8-speed ergos, or

2) install an 8-speed 12-26 cassette and use Campy 10sp ergos.

Research suggests this should work without needing a different RD. For Campy, adjustment starts with the chain on the middle (4th?) cog, and there are 1-2 ghost clicks depending on option.

Is there an opinion on which option (1 or 2) is best? 8 speed ergo levers are less expensive.

A Jtek shiftmate is an option that works better than hubbub routing (say, for Campy 9-Shimano 8) but the site doesn't list Campy 8-Shimano 7 or Campy 10-Shimano 8 as Shiftmate options. I'm guessing this is because it isn't necessary? https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php

My dilemma: I abhor "semi-workable" solutions. If that's the case, I'd rather just go with an old set of Shimano bar-end shifters. Unlike the engineering monstrosities known as "brifters" they have never failed me. But I can't resist the urge to try Campy
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Old 11-12-12, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
These corrections are duly noted, my bad.



For our OP, who wants to run a 7sp cassette with an 8-sp Ergo shifter, let's look at spacing, as Ex-Prez brings his expertise in to further correct my enthusiastic error.

Basically, 8-sp Campy is 5.0mm c-c, per Sheldon. So is 7-sp Shimano, per Sheldon, so on a very basic level, he's fine, and no Wheels Mfg spacers would be needed.

In a secondary sense, you count cogs and spacers, in this case, the Shimano cogs of 1.85 plus the 3.15 spacers equal the 1.9 cogs and 3.1 spacers, so like Ex Pres says.....

In a tertiary sense, you take the 36.9 8-sp Campy width, subtract one spacer at 3.1 and one cog at 1.9 and you're at 31.9, which is the 7-sp Shimano width.

I'm glad I was wrong, in a sense, because now our OP can gear up and ride.
So, you're not marrying your second cousin, just a pretty girl who is exactly the right height for you.

I'm also right, in a slight way, about the spacing being "close enough" combined with the chain slop to be workable. Maybe my way is the second cousin: do it and hope for the best....in a Honey Boo Boo sort of way...

This helps me salvage what little dignity I have left.
Okay, this answers my question too. But is the Campy RD still necessary? I don't want my bike to ride like an inbred Southerner.
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Old 11-12-12, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by KDNYC
Okay, this answers my question too. But is the Campy RD still necessary? I don't want my bike to ride like an inbred Southerner.
I'm sure NYC has it's share. With the RD, it's cable pull, compatibility between the shifter and RD is generally recommended. With all the mixing of Shimano and Campagnolo species, you just never know.

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Old 11-12-12, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61
This is what I was thinking.
I've always wanted to try one of these and think it will look good on one of my 2 Gran Criteriums. One follow up question: would this have enough chain wrap to work with a triple crank in the front or maybe a compact double or should I stick with a conventional double up front?
So many complex words responding to such a simple question.. As to your original query, yes Campy 8 speed will index perfectly with Shimano 7 speed freewheels or cassettes .. Whatever. I have 3 bikes in my garage to prove it. The cog spacing is identical to Campy 7 or 8 speed. Of course, you'll need a Campy 8-speed generation rear derailleur to match. The one in the Ebay ad is fine, although pricey. This short cage unit would not handle the chain wrap requirements of a triple crank. If you want triple, then you'll want an older Racing T unit or something with a longer cage.
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Old 11-13-12, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
So many complex words responding to such a simple question.. As to your original query, yes Campy 8 speed will index perfectly with Shimano 7 speed freewheels or cassettes .. Whatever. I have 3 bikes in my garage to prove it. The cog spacing is identical to Campy 7 or 8 speed. Of course, you'll need a Campy 8-speed generation rear derailleur to match. The one in the Ebay ad is fine, although pricey. This short cage unit would not handle the chain wrap requirements of a triple crank. If you want triple, then you'll want an older Racing T unit or something with a longer cage.
Good to know that it will index perfectly. I'm sorry I wound up with a short cage rear derailleur, although the one I got is very pretty. I may still check and see If I can make a compact double work and then use like a 13-23 hyperglide 7 rear and see if I have enough chain wrap. If this doesn't work I may use a Dura Ace 7400 used crank I have with some Salsa 38/52 chain rings I also have on hand. Now that I have lost a lot of my excess weight, my climbing is quite a bit better and I can make it up some of the medium steep hills with a conventional double but I prefer to spin my way up the steeper hills with a decent cadence and hopefully still have fresh legs after cresting the top.
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Old 11-13-12, 10:08 AM
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ColonelJLloyd 
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Originally Posted by KDNYC
I'm glad this question came up because I have been wanting to try ergos on my beloved '91 RB-1, which has 7-speed and Shimano 600 (tricolor). I am exploring the same options as the OP.

Since I have a set of spare Mavic OPs with 8-10sp hub that can replace the getting-there wolbers my plan is to either

1) install the 7-speed cassette (I also have a NOS one in a box) with a spacer, and try Campy 8-speed ergos, or

2) install an 8-speed 12-26 cassette and use Campy 10sp ergos.

Research suggests this should work without needing a different RD. For Campy, adjustment starts with the chain on the middle (4th?) cog, and there are 1-2 ghost clicks depending on option.

Is there an opinion on which option (1 or 2) is best? 8 speed ergo levers are less expensive.

A Jtek shiftmate is an option that works better than hubbub routing (say, for Campy 9-Shimano 8) but the site doesn't list Campy 8-Shimano 7 or Campy 10-Shimano 8 as Shiftmate options. I'm guessing this is because it isn't necessary? https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php

My dilemma: I abhor "semi-workable" solutions. If that's the case, I'd rather just go with an old set of Shimano bar-end shifters. Unlike the engineering monstrosities known as "brifters" they have never failed me. But I can't resist the urge to try Campy
Yes, #2 will work like a charm with your existing derailleur. In fact, that RD will be fine with an 11-28t cassette if you preferred that.
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