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Identifying vintage italian road frame

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Identifying vintage italian road frame

Old 11-10-12, 04:10 AM
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atomasz
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Identifying vintage italian road frame

I have a vintage lugged steel frame and I can't identify it. Please help me if You can!

Probably it's early 80's.
Lightened lugs with symbol of arrohead also on the fork blades at the inside upper part. (likly to some Colner and many other brands, but not the same)
Campagnolo dropouts.
The bottom bracket shell has two paralell lines cutouts. (likely to ALbuch Kotter frames)
Italian bottom bracket shell, ITA or ENG headset threading.
Holes for old type nutted brake calipers.
Cable guides for shifter cables on the upper sides of the BB shell.
It has been repainted before I got it, but the original red paint is visible.
Fork are originaly chromed and the drive side chain stay also.
Seat post size 27,2.
I would think it's Columbus SL tubing, but it's a bit havier, 2500g with fork.
It was equipped with campagnolo record parts earlier (the seller kept them).

pictures here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1126890...edsIdentifying

PLEASE HELP if anyone can.
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Old 11-10-12, 05:57 AM
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Pic assist.









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Old 11-10-12, 09:40 AM
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No suggestions regarding the brand but the braze-ons in conjunction with the Portacatena dropout indicate circa 1978-1984. Post size and era would indicate SL, at least for the main tubes. Check for the spiral ridges inside the bottom of the fork's steering tube, which would indicate an SL fork and imply a full SL frame.
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Old 11-10-12, 11:40 AM
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my moser has many the same lugs and fork crown,
but a moser you have not.
is there any paint under the black?
with carefull instruction from us you can remove the black without destroying the original paint.
if there are decals under the original clearcoat you may even solve the mistery.
this may shed a lot of light on what you have.

it looks like red paint under there based off of the dropouts.

Oh I guess I need to write this all again....

Last edited by puchfinnland; 11-10-12 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 11-11-12, 04:47 AM
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thank you

yes, it has a red paint layer

there isn't any decals i guess

my one hasn't any engravings like many other italian frames like moser

have every moser engravings?

i'm more and more convinced that it's a Kotter, but Kotter isn't Italian
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Old 11-11-12, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
No suggestions regarding the brand but the braze-ons in conjunction with the Portacatena dropout indicate circa 1978-1984. Post size and era would indicate SL, at least for the main tubes. Check for the spiral ridges inside the bottom of the fork's steering tube, which would indicate an SL fork and imply a full SL frame.
many thanks, your suggestions are like mine's
but i thought spiral ridges inside the bottom bracket are characteristic of SLX according to a catalogue. I look for it.
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Old 11-11-12, 04:52 AM
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thank you
i'll check for them
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Old 11-11-12, 05:08 AM
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ok another round of this...

buy paint stripper

choose only one tube, and only one tube.

apply a very thin coat and wait, it would be good to have a plastic scraper, when it just starts to bubble, get it off,

the original paint is far harder then the black paint and takes longer to get through,

a little at a time you could remove the black enough to discover something out about the paint and decals below.

odds of saving the decals are almost zero if they are still there, but you may just discover what is the manufacturer,

careful removal is the key to this.

mike
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Old 11-11-12, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
ok another round of this...

buy paint stripper

choose only one tube, and only one tube.

apply a very thin coat and wait, it would be good to have a plastic scraper, when it just starts to bubble, get it off,

the original paint is far harder then the black paint and takes longer to get through,

a little at a time you could remove the black enough to discover something out about the paint and decals below.

odds of saving the decals are almost zero if they are still there, but you may just discover what is the manufacturer,

careful removal is the key to this.

mike


thanks for the detailed instructions, i will do so, but some moonths later because i can't do it in our home
i must wait til springtime I'm planning to repaint it for the next season.

I made two more photoes: BB and fork inside with some road grime




I haven't ever heard of Portacatena before. Thanks for this new information.
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File Type: jpg
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Last edited by atomasz; 11-11-12 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 11-11-12, 11:49 AM
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You might read through this Thread of Bottom Bracket Drain Holes to see if you can find a match...?
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Old 11-11-12, 12:34 PM
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There are SO many small builders and contract builders that built bikes in Italy at this time, I have seen and had bikes with these lugs on multiple bikes. If there is no serial # it is probably a contract builder.
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Old 11-11-12, 12:44 PM
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if you strip one tube outside you learn a lot!

I am sure you can find a place to do that.
even apartment buildings have a small garden

mike
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Old 11-12-12, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
if you strip one tube outside you learn a lot!

I am sure you can find a place to do that.
even apartment buildings have a small garden

mike

yes, we have a small garden, but i think i need higher temperature for paint stripping

now i'm using the bike. if i do paint stripping, i will do painting too - in dead season
maybe i can find a proper place at my brothers garage in december

thanks for precious instructions
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Old 11-12-12, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 1 Lugnut View Post
You might read through this Thread of Bottom Bracket Drain Holes to see if you can find a match...?
God bless you! fantastic bracket shell database.
Gios has like mine without "GIOS" engraving
and also Bottechia without the serial number
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Old 11-12-12, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by vjp View Post
There are SO many small builders and contract builders that built bikes in Italy at this time, I have seen and had bikes with these lugs on multiple bikes. If there is no serial # it is probably a contract builder.
I have some numbers on it but not a real serial number
after paint stripping it may be more visible
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Old 11-12-12, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by atomasz View Post
God bless you! fantastic bracket shell database.
Gios has like mine without "GIOS" engraving
and also Bottechia without the serial number
i checked them... the lugs aren't the same
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Old 11-12-12, 01:36 AM
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stripper works in low temps.
it may answer your question sooner!
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Old 11-12-12, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
stripper works in low temps.
it may answer your question sooner!
really? thanks

I'll do it next month before painting. I don' want to ride with partially stripped paint.
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Old 11-12-12, 02:03 AM
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you are riding the frame?

remember-you only are taking off the black- the red will remain on the down tube so it is not going to rust away!
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Old 11-12-12, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
you are riding the frame?

remember-you only are taking off the black- the red will remain on the down tube so it is not going to rust away!
I will do it

I found Kondor (German bike) pics and other sources (in german languane) on web. Details matching: every lugs, chromed parts, cable guides, bottom bracket cutout, sl frame



Kondor used italian frames Romani. Also matching.

I think I need to look for thees decals.
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Old 11-12-12, 05:10 AM
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thin coats of stripper, and only long enough to let it soften the top coat, scrape it off with a plastic card,
now you know what to look for.
looks like you have a match-
condor used italian frames Romani. Also matching.

I just sold a Masini Migani which was may have used the same subcontractor.
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Old 11-12-12, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
thin coats of stripper, and only long enough to let it soften the top coat, scrape it off with a plastic card,
now you know what to look for.
looks like you have a match-
condor used italian frames Romani. Also matching.

I just sold a Masini Migani which was may have used the same subcontractor.

aren't the decals only stickers wich could have been removed before repainting?
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Old 11-12-12, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by atomasz View Post
aren't the decals only stickers wich could have been removed before repainting?
Yes, but what often occurs is that the original paint will fade more but the decals mask the paint and so underneath them fade less. You can sometimes find enough of a "ghost image" to read the name, or at least pick up some more clues.
The Kondor and Romani bikes all look like pretty good candidates but so many of the features are very common to many Italian (and house-branded) frames. The stay caps (which do show up on Gios among others) are less common, but given that there are no engraved names present, this points to a house brand, probably built by somebody with a "name", but unless you uncover the decal clues you may never know either.
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Old 11-12-12, 10:58 AM
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Romani WAS the contract builder for hundreds of shops and other brands. It probably is Romani built, what it was labeled is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Yes, but what often occurs is that the original paint will fade more but the decals mask the paint and so underneath them fade less. You can sometimes find enough of a "ghost image" to read the name, or at least pick up some more clues.
The Kondor and Romani bikes all look like pretty good candidates but so many of the features are very common to many Italian (and house-branded) frames. The stay caps (which do show up on Gios among others) are less common, but given that there are no engraved names present, this points to a house brand, probably built by somebody with a "name", but unless you uncover the decal clues you may never know either.
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Old 11-13-12, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Yes, but what often occurs is that the original paint will fade more but the decals mask the paint and so underneath them fade less. You can sometimes find enough of a "ghost image" to read the name, or at least pick up some more clues.
The Kondor and Romani bikes all look like pretty good candidates but so many of the features are very common to many Italian (and house-branded) frames. The stay caps (which do show up on Gios among others) are less common, but given that there are no engraved names present, this points to a house brand, probably built by somebody with a "name", but unless you uncover the decal clues you may never know either.
thank you very much, i will remove upper layer maybe next week
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