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Shimano 500.

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Shimano 500.

Old 01-25-13, 03:57 PM
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spacemanz
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Shimano 500.

I realize that these aren't exactly rare & valuable, LOL, but they ARE fairly unusual, in this day & age. For the benefit of anyone who's never even heard of them especially, allow me to present, the right honorable Shimano 500 derailleurs. These things are pretty heavy, by today's standards, and I've never tried them, so couldn't tell you about their performance. These were on a mutilated and abandoned Raleigh, and I grabbed them a few months ago now.
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Old 01-25-13, 04:17 PM
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I'm guessing they were pretty low in the Shimano hierarchy, for sure. I think a little spit and polish would do these well.
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Old 01-25-13, 04:24 PM
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Shimano 500 was released in 1975. Basically, it was 600 clone that used more steel and therefore was slightly heavier and more economical.
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Old 01-25-13, 04:27 PM
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Yeah, obviously, I haven't cleaned them at all yet, LOL. I was trying to remember where I just recently saw an old Crane RD, which was the predecessor to Dura-Ace. The RD looks very similar, especially with both having a long cage. I imagine that was fairly uncommon back then.
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Old 01-25-13, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by spacemanz View Post
Yeah, obviously, I haven't cleaned them at all yet, LOL. I was trying to remember where I just recently saw an old Crane RD, which was the predecessor to Dura-Ace. The RD looks very similar, especially with both having a long cage. I imagine that was fairly uncommon back then.
Not at all. In 1975 Shimano alone offered seven long cage derailleurs; Crane GS, 600GS, 500GS, Titlist GS, Tourney GS, Eagle GS and Eagle GPO.
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Old 01-25-13, 05:34 PM
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Which proves, I don't "really" know much after all. I already knew that, but a reminder never hurts, because I forget a lot too.
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Old 01-25-13, 07:05 PM
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I believe those 500 series parts become what is known now a the 105 group. Crane became Dura Ace and 600 became Ultegra. Roger
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Old 01-25-13, 07:09 PM
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There was a 500EX, also, in the early 90's, at the same time there was a 105.
I believe the PDG Paramount Series 2 used it.
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Old 01-26-13, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Not at all. In 1975 Shimano alone offered seven long cage derailleurs; Crane GS, 600GS, 500GS, Titlist GS, Tourney GS, Eagle GS and Eagle GPO.
...and don't forget that the Crane was re-badged at times as the Schwinn LeTour (as found on my '75 Sports Tourer).



...and after some time in the Spa!



Spacemanz, I have a Shimano 400 short cage RD in my collection and it was paired with a Shimano "FE" FD. The 400 is very simular to the 500, except it is all steel, IIRC.
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Old 01-26-13, 07:35 AM
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I used a mint 500 derailleurs on a bike for a while and I thought shifting was great, actually one of the most memorable for great shifting.
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Old 01-26-13, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Spacemanz, I have a Shimano 400 short cage RD in my collection and it was paired with a Shimano "FE" FD. The 400 is very simular to the 500, except it is all steel, IIRC.
Cool. I actually have an FE front too, that came on the old Atala, in pretty decent shape. But that one doesn't say 400 on it, at least not anywhere obvious, that I'd notice.
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Old 01-26-13, 10:46 AM
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Just picked up an Apollo Mixte with a Shimano 500 RD paired with a Shimano 50 FD. Nothing about this bike is "lightweight", steel cottered Sugino crankset, steel 27" rims and the usual "gaspipe" tubing.


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Old 01-26-13, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by spacemanz View Post
Cool. I actually have an FE front too, that came on the old Atala, in pretty decent shape. But that one doesn't say 400 on it, at least not anywhere obvious, that I'd notice.

For some reason, when Shimano released the 600 and 500 rear derailleurs in 1975, the corresponding front derailleurs were designated 60 and 50, repsectively. They didn't get front derailleurs with matching 600 and 500 designations until 1977, which was also the year that the 400 rear derailleur was introduced. It did not have a matching front derailleur. The FE front derailleur was not introduced until 1979.

Most consumers judged the overall quality of a bicycle by the rear derailleur. Few looked at the front derailleur or other components. Manufacturers quickly got smart to this and often tied baiting the customer with a rear derailleur that was a level or two above the other components, especially relatively inconsequential ones likes front derailleurs, headsets and bottom brackets.

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
...The 400 is very simular to the 500, except it is all steel, IIRC.
While it had more steel that the 500, I don't believe the 400 was all steel. I believe that the upper pivot casting was still aluminum. Unfortunately, I don't have one on hand for the magnet test.
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Old 03-04-20, 07:38 PM
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My 500 has a clear plastic sleeve over the spring. I don't believe I've seen that before. This is on a mid-70's Falcon I'm buying. This bike also has the 50 FD and a really fresh looking 531 sticker. The seam-welded downtube suggests that the sticker wasn't really appropriate. Too bad...
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Old 07-12-20, 06:36 AM
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Just used a 500GS to replace a malfunctioning Simplex Prestige RD on my light Velosolex '73, without a 531 sticker, but non-seamed downtube. Hope it outlast some other parts.
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Old 07-13-20, 01:24 PM
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The last I saw of the 500 moniker were the LX500 (mtb) and CX500 (hybrid) derailers of the early 90's.

Some of Shimano's recent pedals and wheels have a 500 suffix, and 105 has vacated the 5xxx range. Tiagra still sitting in the 4xxx range, though the next Tiagra gruppo promises to be called R5000 if not R6000.
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Old 07-13-20, 02:50 PM
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A few years ago I picked up a his and hers pair of late 70's Schwinn Traveler road bikes, the ladies model had all '400' equipment, along with Tourney C/P brakes, steel mid flange hubs, steel WIDE Araya rims, and an all steel ring SR crankset. The men's model had 500 derailleurs, a Tourney crank, Dia Compe brakes, and aluminum mid flange hubs with Araya steel rims. Both bikes were pretty much entry level. The 400 derailleurs were all aluminum bodies with a steel cage, the 500 derailleur was all steel except for the pivot mount. The 400 set were better derailleurs.

Over the years Shimano has had quite a few models derived from the Crane or early 600 derailleurs. There wasn't much difference between the early Crane, the first 600, and models like the Titlist, Altus, and 400. The main difference was likely just weight, and not much weight at that. I've also had several bikes that also came with mixed derailleurs from day one, I remember having a few bikes come out of the box that were supposed to be full 600 group models only to find they substituted a Crane rear derailleur or any other from that lineup. I had an old Ross Super Gran Tour that came with a Crane rear and Altus front derailleur with Shimano click type 'fingertip' stem shifters. The bike was a tank but it came with some decent equipment for about $250 back in the day.
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Old 07-14-20, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagebicycle View Post
....Over the years Shimano has had quite a few models derived from the Crane or early 600 derailleurs. There wasn't much difference between the early Crane, the first 600, and models like the Titlist, Altus, and 400. The main difference was likely just weight, and not much weight at that....
The relatively small variances between models was an extremely clever marketing ploy. Shimano (and SunTour) realized the commercial advantages of having models with a distinctive name for every price point. It was an attractive to both the consumers and the bicycle shops. It was very frustrating for sales personnel to have to explain the differences between something like a bottom of the line Peugeot A08 with a Simplex Prestige versus a PX10 with a Simplex Criterium. During the boom, Peugeot's entire line was covered by two Simplex models and those two looked identical to the consumer, except for the colour of the name plate, which didn't have a model name. Consumers weren't sure if they were getting more value for their money when they went further up the product line. With Shimano, there was a derailleur with a different model name at each price point, which eased the consumer's mind. The consumer may not have been able to detect any other differences but all that mattered was the model name. Even novice bicycle buyers could rationalize that a 600 model derailleur was better than a 500 model and therefore worth more. By making things easier for the bicycle shops, the shops ordered more Japanese equipped bicycles, which made the bicycle manufacturers equip more models with Japanese components. It was just one of the differences that contributed to the Japanese taking over the USA bicycle market in a very short period.
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Old 07-14-20, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
.......................................................... It was very frustrating for sales personnel to have to explain the differences between something like a bottom of the line Peugeot A08 with a Simplex Prestige versus a PX10 with a Simplex Criterium. During the boom, Peugeot's entire line was covered by two Simplex models and those two looked identical to the consumer, except for the colour of the name plate, which didn't have a model name. Consumers weren't sure if they were getting more value for their money when they went further up the product line. .................................................................................................... .............
Didn't the PX10 eventually come with a Super LJ? I seem to remember the last one I bought came out of the box with one, (70's model).

It was nearly impossible to convince the average buyer what the difference was between the A-08, U-08, and PX10. Most seemed to opt for the U-08 and then bought a ton of upgrades right away. We sold a ton of Weinmann C/P brake kits, SR stems and SR bars, and Either Suntour Cyclone or Huret Jubile derailleurs along with those bikes.
It seems no one liked the Mafac brakes, nearly every last one got converted over to Weinmann C/P. The Atax stems were also hated, most wanted that smooth look of an SR stem. Funny thing was not many bothered loosing the serrated sidewall steel Rigida rims. There were a few who wanted wheels built with alloys but mostly it was the guy who bought the PX10 who didn't want the tubulars so we built up a set of wheels using either a set of Rigida 1320's or Mavic Super Champions. Those with older PX models often upgraded to the Super LJ. Most Peugeot riders did generally stay with all Euro components. I'd venture to guess that regardless of what we told them, most likely felt that all the frames were the same regardless of any tubing decals. The average buyer was either buying their first drop handle road bike or their only previous experience was with a Schwinn Varsity, so anything they bought from Peugeot was way lighter than anything they had been used to. The shop owner back then even kept a Schwinn Varsity there for comparison, when they felt the weight difference between even the A-08 and the Varsity, most were sold pretty quick, especially when they realized they were priced about the same.

I seem to remember there being an 800 rear derailleur too, but they were odd or rarely seen. Maybe an early name for the Altus or 105?
I seem to remember putting a couple of Motobecanes together that came out of the box with derailleurs marked Shimano '800'.

I also remember one of the parts wholesalers having a big sale on Shimano Titlist and Altus derailleurs one year, the shop I was at then bought about 300 of them and used them for their general replacement derailleur for years. I've still got a handful of them here. Compared to an early 600 Arabesque model or Crane, there's basically no difference other than the Crane having a slightly shorter cage that made it ever so slightly lighter. The 600 and Titlist are within 1/10th of a gram. The difference likely being that the 600's design meant more metal was removed due to all the scroll designs.

.
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Old 07-15-20, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagebicycle View Post
Didn't the PX10 eventually come with a Super LJ? I seem to remember the last one I bought came out of the box with one, (70's model).
I don't recall the PX10 variants ever coming with an LJ or SLJ. During the early 1970s bicycle boom they came with a Criterium. In the late 1970s they switched to an SX410, which was used through the very early 1980s. In the mid-1980s there were a couple of years where they used the SX610/630. To get an SLJ, you had to step up to one of the post boom PY10 variants.

Originally Posted by vintagebicycle View Post
It was nearly impossible to convince the average buyer what the difference was between the A-08, U-08, and PX10. Most seemed to opt for the U-08 and then bought a ton of upgrades right away. We sold a ton of Weinmann C/P brake kits, SR stems and SR bars, and Either Suntour Cyclone or Huret Jubile derailleurs along with those bikes.
It seems no one liked the Mafac brakes, nearly every last one got converted over to Weinmann C/P. The Atax stems were also hated, most wanted that smooth look of an SR stem. Funny thing was not many bothered loosing the serrated sidewall steel Rigida rims. There were a few who wanted wheels built with alloys but mostly it was the guy who bought the PX10 who didn't want the tubulars so we built up a set of wheels using either a set of Rigida 1320's or Mavic Super Champions. Those with older PX models often upgraded to the Super LJ. Most Peugeot riders did generally stay with all Euro components. I'd venture to guess that regardless of what we told them, most likely felt that all the frames were the same regardless of any tubing decals. The average buyer was either buying their first drop handle road bike or their only previous experience was with a Schwinn Varsity, so anything they bought from Peugeot was way lighter than anything they had been used to. The shop owner back then even kept a Schwinn Varsity there for comparison, when they felt the weight difference between even the A-08 and the Varsity, most were sold pretty quick, especially when they realized they were priced about the same.
While I do agree that there was a large amount of time spent explaining the differences in Peugeot models, we didn't have the upgrade issues you experienced, The vast majority were bought stock and remained that way. The only notable exceptions were the tubular tyred racing models, which we tried dissuade consumers from buying, unless they were experienced cyclists, preferably with an inclination to compete. Rarely, we did have success with a persuading a customer that a UX10 was a better option than a PX10. Still, most refused to listen and almost invariably returned, unhappy, within a week or two, only to covert to wired-on wheelsets.

We definitely didn't have converts to other brakes or stems. Our customers were happy with the performance and appearance of the stock components.

The recommendation that I always used to suggest to improve the Prestige shifting was to substitute metal shift levers for the stock, metal reinforced, Delrin units. These flexed too much, resulting in high lever force and lots of overshift. A metal shift lever made a world of difference, in my opinion.

The U08 was by far the beset seller in the Peugeot line, at the shop where i worked and later managed. The upper entry level model was almost invariably the best seller for any of our full range brands. My personal observations on the matter was that the teenagers to young adults, who were the core market during the boom, were extremely status conscious. They wanted a ten speed to be part of the "scene" but the majority didn't want to spend a lot of money and definitely didn't want to be seen on the bottom of the line model. As a result, the upper entry models, such as the Peugeot U08, Raleigh Grand Prix and Nishiki Olympic became the beset selling models for their respective brands.

Originally Posted by vintagebicycle View Post
I seem to remember there being an 800 rear derailleur too, but they were odd or rarely seen. Maybe an early name for the Altus or 105?
I seem to remember putting a couple of Motobecanes together that came out of the box with derailleurs marked Shimano '800'.

I also remember one of the parts wholesalers having a big sale on Shimano Titlist and Altus derailleurs one year, the shop I was at then bought about 300 of them and used them for their general replacement derailleur for years. I've still got a handful of them here. Compared to an early 600 Arabesque model or Crane, there's basically no difference other than the Crane having a slightly shorter cage that made it ever so slightly lighter. The 600 and Titlist are within 1/10th of a gram. The difference likely being that the 600's design meant more metal was removed due to all the scroll designs..
I don't recall any Shimano 800 derailleurs and I'm pretty familiar with the Shimano product lines from the 1970s and 1980s.

I always considered there to be a significant difference between Crane and the 1st geration Titlist derailleur when compered to the 1st and 2nd generation 600 rear derailleurs and the 2nd generation Titlist rear derailleurs The Crane and 1st generation Ttlist were manufactured using aluminum castings, with the difference being steel cage plates on the Titlist. When 600 was introduced they cut costs by using more parts manufactured from stamped and formed sheet metal. This practice carried through into 2nd generation 600 and 2nd generation Titlist. I believe the only casting on 1st generation 600 is the upper pivot. Beside saving cost, this concession also resulted in derailleurs that were notably less rigid.
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Old 07-15-20, 08:25 AM
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I have that same front derailleur on my 77 Schwinn Superior. I'm not sure why it was put on that bike, but it was on it when i found it (left in a ditch in the woods longside the road) and I've left it on because it works fine.
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Old 07-29-20, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
I don't recall the PX10 variants ever coming with an LJ or SLJ. During the early 1970s bicycle boom they came with a Criterium. In the late 1970s they switched to an SX410, which was used through the very early 1980s. In the mid-1980s there were a couple of years where they used the SX610/630. To get an SLJ, you had to step up to one of the post boom PY10 variants.
I remember back around 1974-75, the owner of the shop told me to pick him out a really nice PX10 for himself, and do the same for myself if I wanted, it was sort of a Christmas bonus. He kept the stock wheels on his, a 23" frame model, and I swapped out the wheels for a set of Rigida 1320 700c rims and another set of low flange Normandy Luxe Competition hubs. We had gotten in about 40 bikes roughly four or five of each size. I and two others were pulling bikes out of boxes and staging them for assembly on various stands around the shop. We usually would hang around for a few hours every night to assemble bikes, more so around the holidays. The shop owner was pretty cool and the atmosphere there was pretty relaxed most of the time. The bikes were coming out of the boxes with varied models of saddles, most were either Ideal or Brooks B17, a few had lesser saddles. Four bikes had SLJ derailleurs, I don't recall which model off hand but most likely the SLJ6000 that was common then.
We pulled those aside for ourselves. I ended up swapping the SLJ on one small frame onto a larger frame for me to keep. The owner kept one with and SLJ and Ideal saddle as it came out of the box. It was around that time that some also started showing up with Weimann brakes, so we were careful not to put two side by side, one having Mafac competition calipers and another with Weinmann calipers.
Most customers liked the look of the Weinmann calipers better and I think that was what started the demand for making the swap. Often customers would see a bike with the Weimann calipers, get told they were better and only want a bike with Weinmann calipers. It got to be a real pain playing musical calipers on new bikes to make the sale. What it amounted to is baskets of unwanted Mafac calipers from both the PX10's and lesser models. Its why I still have a basket of new take off calipers in my collection here. When that shop closed, I cleaned out most of the old parts that had survived from back then.
One thing that I do remember is that the whole supply line for Peugeot was a mess, there were constant back orders, substitutions, and quality issues. Although it wasn't just Peugeot bikes, they were the highest volume so the problems with them were what had the most of. Back then we also had no way to track serial numbers and difference between models was vague, even to us at times. We often talked about the likelyhood that they were shipping older bikes to us at times to make up big orders. It was during the holidays when bikes were moving the fastest when we saw all the odd variations show up.
I remember a few bikes coming out of the box with mismatched wheels, mismatched hubs, etc. We had one Orange U08 come in with alloy Rigida rims, a version of rim we never saw before, or after. A buddy of mine had that bike till he died, his widow still has it.
Most PX10's came with Criterion derailleurs but many came with wrong front derailleurs, we often found Prestige or LJ 23, basically an all aluminum version of the Prestige. Towards the later 70's they were all Prestige out of the box. Most substitutions were upgrades but not always.

[QUOTE=T-Mar;21588302]
While I do agree that there was a large amount of time spent explaining the differences in Peugeot models, we didn't have the upgrade issues you experienced, The vast majority were bought stock and remained that way. The only notable exceptions were the tubular tyred racing models, which we tried dissuade consumers from buying, unless they were experienced cyclists, preferably with an inclination to compete. Rarely, we did have success with a persuading a customer that a UX10 was a better

We definitely didn't have converts to other brakes or stems. Our customers were happy with the performance and appearance of the stock components.

Wasn't the UX10 a 27" wheel bike? We would keep ready made wheelsets with either Rigida or Weinmann rims ready for swap on the PX10 models, nearly every one got swapped day one. The owner would tell them if they swap them now, he can give them at least some credit on the take off wheels, if they rode the bike for a week, the original wheels were theirs. Very few went out with tubulars. I think maybe 10 out of several hundred or more over the time I was there. When I cleaned out the place years later there were dozens of new take off wheels there. I finally just sold off the last pair of Mavic Montlery wheels with Normandy Luxe hubs last year. I did save myself a few sets of hubs though.

The drive to replace stems came from an article in some magazine one year, all of a sudden everyone wanted to replace their hollow French stems in fear they had a "Death Stem". I'm a big guy, I rode on a hollow Atax stem for years with no issues. The same for various Pivo, AVA, and GB stems.



Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
The recommendation that I always used to suggest to improve the Prestige shifting was to substitute metal shift levers for the stock, metal reinforced, Delrin units. These flexed too much, resulting in high lever force and lots of overshift. A metal shift lever made a world of difference, in my opinion.

The U08 was by far the best seller in the Peugeot line, at the shop where i worked and later managed. The upper entry level model was almost invariably the best seller for any of our full range brands. My personal observations on the matter was that the teenagers to young adults, who were the core market during the boom, were extremely status conscious. They wanted a ten speed to be part of the "scene" but the majority didn't want to spend a lot of money and definitely didn't want to be seen on the bottom of the line model. As a result, the upper entry models, such as the Peugeot U08, Raleigh Grand Prix and Nishiki Olympic became the beset selling models for their respective brands.
The same here, the U08 was the number one bike for years, and right behind it was the A08. Most Peugeot buyers were between 15 and 21, they were mostly following the fad and didn't want to spend big money. The Raleigh buyer was a very different buyer, they weren't shopping price, they wanted a better bike, and saw the Peugeot bikes as too cheap to be any good. The Nishiki Olympic wasn't very popular, the Sport and Custom Sport were top sellers in that line, then the International. In Raleigh, the Grand Prix wasn't the most popular, it was likely the Super Course. For a few years we pumped out a ton of Super Grand Prix models, it was a little cheaper, looked good and rivaled the Super Course in weight. It also stepped the buyer up to 700C alloy wheels. The Grand Prix competed there with a few Motobecane models. The Super Course was subplanted as the number three seller when Trek came out, and the 400 and 500 series got super popular for a few years. The move to Japan for Raleigh and Moby turned off that group of buyers though and they seemed to move over to Trek.



Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
I don't recall any Shimano 800 derailleurs and I'm pretty familiar with the Shimano product lines from the 1970s and 1980s.

I always considered there to be a significant difference between Crane and the 1st geration Titlist derailleur when compered to the 1st and 2nd generation 600 rear derailleurs and the 2nd generation Titlist rear derailleurs The Crane and 1st generation Ttlist were manufactured using aluminum castings, with the difference being steel cage plates on the Titlist. When 600 was introduced they cut costs by using more parts manufactured from stamped and formed sheet metal. This practice carried through into 2nd generation 600 and 2nd generation Titlist. I believe the only casting on 1st generation 600 is the upper pivot. Beside saving cost, this concession also resulted in derailleurs that were notably less rigid.
I seem to remember something odd about the early 105 line, the Golden Arrow models. . It was either the earliest version of them or the early 'Ultegra line that for a short bit came in as "Shimano 800'. I only saw a few scripted that way but the boxes kept that name for a while.I remember finding one in a parts drawer and asking about it and was told not to use that one for some reason. Later I think it morphed into one of the early MTB models? I'd have to do some digging but I do remember seeing a derailleur back then with the '800' on it I remember asking the one rep what happened to a '700'. and he made a comment about the TV program I won't repeat here.
I don't think I saw but one or two and I seem to think I only saw them in boxes on the shelf, not on any bikes that came in. It was a good bit after the 500 and 600 models were out. I'll have to keep an eye out the next time I go digging, I may have one here somewhere yet. The owner also did some buying from overseas back then, so it may also have been from a different market than here. He had quite a few items on the shelves that were imported direct many were items not sold here.


I still have a Shimano parts box here from the early 600 EX days, the kit is labeled Shimano Crane/600/Titlist/Altus repair parts. Its basically a set of drawers full of bodies, wheels, hinges, pins, screws and such for that series. A few kits are in metal cabinets, a few are in plastic drawers like tackle boxes with slide in metal holders in groups of 5.
I just put my hands on an older Titlist, and a same era 600 Arabesque style and they're identical in all ways but the designs and script. There's no steel on the Titlist at all other than hardware.
The parts diagram on the lid is copyrighted 1976 for the Titlist, 1975 for the 600, and 1974 for the Crane. which again is pretty much the same but the model I've got here has a slightly shorter cage than the 600 or Titlist.
There was a later Titlist that was a very different model, it was a low end model used in the mid to late 70's I believe.
There may well have been other variations but those I've dealt with were basically all the same. I do remember that the Altus front derailleurs were super light but they didn't last long with the all aluminum cage. There was a Titlist front that was nearly the same too.

Here's a few pics of the Titlist, Altus LT, and 600EX. The Altus is the lightest but uses a different cable clamp. The Titlist and 600 differ only in the script and the type of cable clamp bolt. (hex on the Titlist, allen on the 600ex)
The pivot bolts, ends, and springs are identical on all three, however, according to the parts breakdown in the main cabinet, the part number for every part in each model is a different number, even though they come from the same bin in the kit. (One bin will be marked with three or four part numbers).
We had kits like this for a dozen or more of the Shimano derailleurs.
Suntour was different in that their repair 'kit' was a huge pegboard you hung on the wall, much like the New Winner Freewheel display boards.

A good number of the parts in the earlier Shimano kits are getting used up, but I've built a handful of new old derailleurs out them too over the years rather than using new in the box models for builds. I never hesitated to use the Titlist or Altus on any of my own builds vs a 600EX function wise, they for all intensive purposes are the same thing mechanically. I ran a Titlist short cage like the one pictured for years on a Panasonic DX4000 back in the 80's, It came that way, despite being advertised as being full 600EX. We would also find the Titlist and Altus used interchangeably on Ross Grand Tour and Super Grand Tour.
I didn't have a Crane handy here but I'll have to dig around for one if I get the chance. There were variations in those as well. I do remember fixing one using parts from these kits not that long ago.


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