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Frame identification - a lot of pictures!
Can you help me with identification of this frame? all other parts are not original and I only want to know what brand is this frame? It has Gipiemme dropouts, shimano 600 headset (original) and internal cables routing. The serial number is 00/3314
http://www.pohrani.com/f/B/3c/4y3CZOxg/p1080338.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/2q/FR/3fIoGjCK/p1080339.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/6/6s/1jYvvJSw/p1080340.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/2/f1/R5ibMy6/p1080341.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/3Y/kx/4YeyJE1V/p1080342.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/1Z/QS/1AAcgb2r/p1080343.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/K/5O/3GqlWJT0/p1080344.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/2C/QQ/mm0WpZP/p1080346.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/16/Pr/11U2wNGJ/p1080348.jpg http://www.pohrani.com/f/2i/af/35RIylAt/p1080351.jpg |
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nothing that I can connect to a name: the piercing on the lugs I've seen before, but doesn't ring a bell right now. The stay caps are a little akin to Gios, but close is no cigar, it's not a Gios. Gipiemme DOs were often (but not always) used on the 2nd tier frames from many Italian builders, guess they were just a few lira less...might be a Gipiemme brake bridge, too.
What size seatpost? Is there "rifling" in the steerer base? |
Can you conclude something with this internal cables routing, they were not very frequent? The seatpost is 26.2, and this bike had shimano 600 equipment before. Any ideas?
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I searched around last night and couldn't find much. Saying that, the cable routing through the top tube looks rough; usually the underside of the extending tube is filled in more, but I'm still looking at bikes with tear drop lug cut outs.
Edit; Question: What thread is the bottom bracket? this would go far trying to ID.. |
The BB thread is italian. And the ex-owner says that it is made of Columbus. Also the fork is another mistery. I am not sure that it is the original fork of this frame so do not take this information seriously, but it might help. The fork is chromed Tange Made in Japan, sloping crown, and the fork dropouts are also tange? any ideas?
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it's a replacement fork and if the 26.2 actually is the correct size for the seatpost, it's a oddball size for Columbus tubing. Normally SL would take 27.2, SP (and this seems like big enough frame that SP might be used for the seat tube) should be 27.0, Aelle (which might be the logical set for a frame with GPM DOs) might be 26.8...and it doesn't seem like there's a reinforcing sleeve in the top of the ST (which is the typical reason for a 26.2). So...odd...could be that the ST was brazed in upside-down with the butt at the top instead of the bottom (has happened before!)
Internal cable routing was done by so many, but this one is rather a "utilitarian" job with just the guide tube brazed into the top of the TT, no grommets or "frenching" of the entry/exit...so it doesn't tell us "who done it". Frame being all chrome says it might have had a cromovelato finish, originally. |
The frame is not chromed, it is raw, the color is removed, the orignal color was white and blue, and can you tell me what is your general opinion about this frame?
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After an exhaustive search I have determined you bike is a Casati. Casati is similar to Olmo in they come in various levels from the high end and heavily pantographed, to very plain; however many have the identical style brake routing through the headtube http://www.flickr.com/photos/7764920@N06/8196101706 and I finally found one with a tear drop lug cut out http://www.flickr.com/photos/markcos...n/photostream/.
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker
(Post 15259726)
After an exhaustive search I have determined you bike is a Casati. Casati is similar to Olmo in they come in various levels from the high end and heavily pantographed, to very plain; however many have the identical style brake routing through the headtube http://www.flickr.com/photos/7764920@N06/8196101706 and I finally found one with a tear drop lug cut out http://www.flickr.com/photos/markcos...n/photostream/.
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EDIT: the seatpost is not 26.2, it is 26.8 i made a mistake sorry ;)
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Originally Posted by tokic
(Post 15260051)
Thank you very much for your readyness to help me, i googled about casati and olmo frames but i did not find any casati with gipiemme dropouts. I found few Olmo frames with gipiemme dropouts, but however olmos have never had internal cable routing..This brake routing and lugs on Casati frame are identical to mine so i think there is some connection :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25461825@N08/3728353202/ |
Originally Posted by tokic
(Post 15260051)
Thank you very much for your readyness to help me, i googled about casati and olmo frames but i did not find any casati with gipiemme dropouts. I found few Olmo frames with gipiemme dropouts, but however olmos have never had internal cable routing..This brake routing and lugs on Casati frame are identical to mine so i think there is some connection :)
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I'm impressed with your detective work...but not convinced. I was inclined to think "Casati", too, but the piercing in that pierced lug shown is not an exact match, plus I haven't seen a pic of a Casati with all the details (the stay caps, lug piercings that match, GPM dropouts and brakebridge, slotted BB shell) that match the OPs.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Casati, but... But, as you say, such pix might never be found, and I'd say given that, it might as well be called a Casati as any other...In other words: it's the best guess (so far). I will stick my neck out and say: I bet it's Aelle tubing (26.8 seatpost). Whatever the brand, it should make a very fine rider: similar Italian Aelle frames usually are...enjoy it. EDIT: hope this doesn't come off as snarky, I just read it again and didn't mean to sound so snotty. I mis-read the pix as of the OPs as having (mostly) chrome so I'm curious to see a shot of what it looked like painted: got one? |
Originally Posted by unworthy1
(Post 15264111)
I'm impressed with your detective work...but not convinced. I was inclined to think "Casati", too, but the piercing in that pierced lug shown is not an exact match, plus I haven't seen a pic of a Casati with all the details (the stay caps, lug piercings that match, GPM dropouts and brakebridge, slotted BB shell) that match the OPs.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Casati, but... But, as you say, such pix might never be found, and I'd say given that, it might as well be called a Casati as any other...In other words: it's the best guess (so far). I will stick my neck out and say: I bet it's Aelle tubing (26.8 seatpost). Whatever the brand, it should make a very fine rider: similar Italian Aelle frames usually are...enjoy it. EDIT: hope this doesn't come off as snarky, I just read it again and didn't mean to sound so snotty. I mis-read the pix as of the OPs as having (mostly) chrome so I'm curious to see a shot of what it looked like painted: got one? But the easiset way to tell is to get a hold of Casati and ask them. I got this from another Casati post dated 2009; Email: Attn: Stefania at Casati Send: Pic and serial number of bike Ask: For confirmation of the bike's legitimacy and origin Stefania will get back to you. She got back to me quickly. Even offered a tour of the factory, but they were on break at our convenient time. Very nice to work with. CASATI snc di Casati Gianluigi & C. Via Prampolini 7 20052 MONZA MI Tel. ++39.039.2840442 Fax ++39.039.2321200 ciclicasati@ciclicasati.it www.ciclicasati.it |
Originally Posted by onespeedbiker
(Post 15275647)
I have yet to see any other bike manufacturer has that unfinished look to it. All of the Casati's that have the top tube routing, have them and no other bike manufacturer that I have seen uses anything even close.
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
(Post 15275963)
But I have seen several other makes that have nearly identical internal cable routing: it's not that unique to Casati. I'll post some pics of what else is out there that matches the OPs top tube, but it will have to wait cause I'm hitting the snooze button.
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4 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by onespeedbiker
(Post 15276102)
I'm not saying that Casati is the only brand that has cable routing through the top tube. What I am talking about is the they way the tubes that are brazed into the top tube extend out of the top tube without any flaring on the side.
I'm sure you can find more examples if you want to search for them...I don't know if any of them (or the Casati) are anything like an exact match to the OP's TT cable guide treatment, and you would need to see them (or excellent pix) side-by-side to make a real comparison. But all these brands (including the Casati) have other obvious features (like pantographed logos and distinctive stay caps, etc, etc.) that would make ID-ing a match a snap, if it was a match that is. |
Hmmm the problem is that almost all the european manufacturers put their logos somewhere and this thing has absolutely nothing. When I saw it I thought was english or french but the italian BB kind'a mislead big time. Is not japanese, again the BB shell.
My best guess based in the seatpost diameter and BB shell is that the bike it is a low end italian or french brand from back in the mid 60s. But the cable routing doesnt make any sense... low end doesnt have that cable routing Next option is that the bike is a custom modernization of an old european brand and the cable routing was added later on together with the chrome work, chrome stuff 30 years ago was piece of cake and not that expensive. |
5 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by unworthy1
(Post 15277474)
Yes, I think I understand exactly what you're referring to, and so am I...here are 4 quick examples from Mark Bulgier's catalog scans (Battaglin, Chesini, Daccordi and Paletti) that all have the top tube cable guide just brazed into the top tube and the plain exposed guide-ends exiting the tube at "12 o'clock" position.
I'm sure you can find more examples if you want to search for them...I don't know if any of them (or the Casati) are anything like an exact match to the OP's TT cable guide treatment, and you would need to see them (or excellent pix) side-by-side to make a real comparison. But all these brands (including the Casati) have other obvious features (like pantographed logos and distinctive stay caps, etc, etc.) that would make ID-ing a match a snap, if it was a match that is. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=299575http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=299572http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=299573http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=299574 Of course there are other issues such as Casati making frames for a number of other manufactures, and the lack of a similar frame that has more than one or two of the features of the OP's frame. Still I would call Casati; if nothing else it would eliminate Casati if they give it the thumbs down. And here is a photo of a Casati with the same brake bridge as the OP's bike http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=299622 |
Originally Posted by ultraman6970
(Post 15278194)
Hmmm the problem is that almost all the european manufacturers put their logos somewhere and this thing has absolutely nothing. When I saw it I thought was english or french but the italian BB kind'a mislead big time. Is not japanese, again the BB shell.
My best guess based in the seatpost diameter and BB shell is that the bike it is a low end italian or french brand from back in the mid 60s. But the cable routing doesnt make any sense... low end doesnt have that cable routing Next option is that the bike is a custom modernization of an old european brand and the cable routing was added later on together with the chrome work, chrome stuff 30 years ago was piece of cake and not that expensive. |
Since I've never shied from beating a dead horse:
If you go to Mark Bulgier's site and actually look at the catalog scans, you can see the pages at large enough scale to see what the TT cable treatment looks like...I just posted small scale "thumbnails" since that's the default size with the forum's attachment function. True enough, the OP's and the 3 Casati's TT guide brazing looks nearly identical, but I bet that so do several other makes that aren't Casatis...my belabored point is that that feature alone is nothing I would base an ID on...but thankfully not everybody is like me. ;) Neither is the GPM (or possibly Cinelli, they are nearly identical) brakebridge, since that bit was so widely used it's nearly generic. The 2-slot BB shell is also a fairly commonplace item, as are those BB cable guides, and I get nothing from the serial number (but that's a really good thing to try to match up with Casati, or another make if somebody has an example to match, both the font and the format). The only bits that stand out as something like a builders "signature" are the relatively unusual piercings in the lugs and those "spoon" type staycaps...those 2 thing, especially together on one frame, are more unique that all the rest...problem remains that they aren't clues I can follow up, I just don't find pics that match them. The stay ends on the GPM dropouts are nothing distinctive, they look "straight out of the box" with minimal work before brazing...likewise the fact (am I seeing it right, tokic?) that the seat lug ears are open, and not filled-in, again points more to a "production line" product. I don't have any idea what sort of frames Casati might have built on a contractor basis for other brands, but since you have all their contact info, onespeedbiker, maybe you will get info out of them way before tokic ever will. ;) |
Originally Posted by unworthy1
(Post 15292230)
Since I've never shied from beating a dead horse:
If you go to Mark Bulgier's site and actually look at the catalog scans, you can see the pages at large enough scale to see what the TT cable treatment looks like...I just posted small scale "thumbnails" since that's the default size with the forum's attachment function. True enough, the OP's and the 3 Casati's TT guide brazing looks nearly identical, but I bet that so do several other makes that aren't Casatis...my belabored point is that that feature alone is nothing I would base an ID on...but thankfully not everybody is like me. ;) Neither is the GPM (or possibly Cinelli, they are nearly identical) brakebridge, since that bit was so widely used it's nearly generic. The 2-slot BB shell is also a fairly commonplace item, as are those BB cable guides, and I get nothing from the serial number (but that's a really good thing to try to match up with Casati, or another make if somebody has an example to match, both the font and the format). The only bits that stand out as something like a builders "signature" are the relatively unusual piercings in the lugs and those "spoon" type staycaps...those 2 thing, especially together on one frame, are more unique that all the rest...problem remains that they aren't clues I can follow up, I just don't find pics that match them. The stay ends on the GPM dropouts are nothing distinctive, they look "straight out of the box" with minimal work before brazing...likewise the fact (am I seeing it right, tokic?) that the seat lug ears are open, and not filled-in, again points more to a "production line" product. I don't have any idea what sort of frames Casati might have built on a contractor basis for other brands, but since you have all their contact info, onespeedbiker, maybe you will get info out of them way before tokic ever will. ;) |
And this frame is NICKLE PLATED and originally it had a combo of white and blue paint on the plating. Could it help?
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