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Frame identification - a lot of pictures!

Old 02-09-13, 04:20 PM
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Frame identification - a lot of pictures!

Can you help me with identification of this frame? all other parts are not original and I only want to know what brand is this frame? It has Gipiemme dropouts, shimano 600 headset (original) and internal cables routing. The serial number is 00/3314










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Old 02-09-13, 04:21 PM
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Old 02-09-13, 06:09 PM
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Old 02-09-13, 10:58 PM
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nothing that I can connect to a name: the piercing on the lugs I've seen before, but doesn't ring a bell right now. The stay caps are a little akin to Gios, but close is no cigar, it's not a Gios. Gipiemme DOs were often (but not always) used on the 2nd tier frames from many Italian builders, guess they were just a few lira less...might be a Gipiemme brake bridge, too.
What size seatpost?
Is there "rifling" in the steerer base?
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Old 02-10-13, 04:40 AM
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Can you conclude something with this internal cables routing, they were not very frequent? The seatpost is 26.2, and this bike had shimano 600 equipment before. Any ideas?
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Old 02-10-13, 10:57 AM
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I searched around last night and couldn't find much. Saying that, the cable routing through the top tube looks rough; usually the underside of the extending tube is filled in more, but I'm still looking at bikes with tear drop lug cut outs.

Edit; Question: What thread is the bottom bracket? this would go far trying to ID..

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Old 02-10-13, 12:28 PM
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The BB thread is italian. And the ex-owner says that it is made of Columbus. Also the fork is another mistery. I am not sure that it is the original fork of this frame so do not take this information seriously, but it might help. The fork is chromed Tange Made in Japan, sloping crown, and the fork dropouts are also tange? any ideas?
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Old 02-10-13, 12:42 PM
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it's a replacement fork and if the 26.2 actually is the correct size for the seatpost, it's a oddball size for Columbus tubing. Normally SL would take 27.2, SP (and this seems like big enough frame that SP might be used for the seat tube) should be 27.0, Aelle (which might be the logical set for a frame with GPM DOs) might be 26.8...and it doesn't seem like there's a reinforcing sleeve in the top of the ST (which is the typical reason for a 26.2). So...odd...could be that the ST was brazed in upside-down with the butt at the top instead of the bottom (has happened before!)
Internal cable routing was done by so many, but this one is rather a "utilitarian" job with just the guide tube brazed into the top of the TT, no grommets or "frenching" of the entry/exit...so it doesn't tell us "who done it".
Frame being all chrome says it might have had a cromovelato finish, originally.
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Old 02-10-13, 04:19 PM
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The frame is not chromed, it is raw, the color is removed, the orignal color was white and blue, and can you tell me what is your general opinion about this frame?
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Old 02-11-13, 12:23 AM
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After an exhaustive search I have determined you bike is a Casati. Casati is similar to Olmo in they come in various levels from the high end and heavily pantographed, to very plain; however many have the identical style brake routing through the headtube https://www.flickr.com/photos/7764920@N06/8196101706 and I finally found one with a tear drop lug cut out https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcos...n/photostream/.

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Old 02-11-13, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
After an exhaustive search I have determined you bike is a Casati. Casati is similar to Olmo in they come in various levels from the high end and heavily pantographed, to very plain; however many have the identical style brake routing through the headtube https://www.flickr.com/photos/7764920@N06/8196101706 and I finally found one with a tear drop lug cut out https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcos...n/photostream/.
Thank you very much for your readyness to help me, i googled about casati and olmo frames but i did not find any casati with gipiemme dropouts. I found few Olmo frames with gipiemme dropouts, but however olmos have never had internal cable routing..This brake routing and lugs on Casati frame are identical to mine so i think there is some connection
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Old 02-11-13, 09:20 AM
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EDIT: the seatpost is not 26.2, it is 26.8 i made a mistake sorry
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Old 02-11-13, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tokic View Post
Thank you very much for your readyness to help me, i googled about casati and olmo frames but i did not find any casati with gipiemme dropouts. I found few Olmo frames with gipiemme dropouts, but however olmos have never had internal cable routing..This brake routing and lugs on Casati frame are identical to mine so i think there is some connection
Olmos in the 90's did.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25461825@N08/3728353202/
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Old 02-11-13, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tokic View Post
Thank you very much for your readyness to help me, i googled about casati and olmo frames but i did not find any casati with gipiemme dropouts. I found few Olmo frames with gipiemme dropouts, but however olmos have never had internal cable routing..This brake routing and lugs on Casati frame are identical to mine so i think there is some connection
Casati bikes are poorly represented on the internet. I referred to the Olmo only to say that Casati made different level frames as did Olmo; your frame is not an Olmo. Your bike is definitely a Casati; Casti used several different dropouts according to the level of the frame; Campy on the higher level and there own named "Casti" dropout and Gippieme. It is doubtful you will find another frame that has all the features of yours but 1) Casati frames with Gippieme dropouts were common (just not well represented with Google) and 2) there is no doubt regarding the manufacturer of your frame; it is a Casti

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Old 02-12-13, 01:42 AM
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I'm impressed with your detective work...but not convinced. I was inclined to think "Casati", too, but the piercing in that pierced lug shown is not an exact match, plus I haven't seen a pic of a Casati with all the details (the stay caps, lug piercings that match, GPM dropouts and brakebridge, slotted BB shell) that match the OPs.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Casati, but...

But, as you say, such pix might never be found, and I'd say given that, it might as well be called a Casati as any other...In other words: it's the best guess (so far).

I will stick my neck out and say: I bet it's Aelle tubing (26.8 seatpost).
Whatever the brand, it should make a very fine rider: similar Italian Aelle frames usually are...enjoy it.

EDIT: hope this doesn't come off as snarky, I just read it again and didn't mean to sound so snotty. I mis-read the pix as of the OPs as having (mostly) chrome so I'm curious to see a shot of what it looked like painted: got one?

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Old 02-14-13, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I'm impressed with your detective work...but not convinced. I was inclined to think "Casati", too, but the piercing in that pierced lug shown is not an exact match, plus I haven't seen a pic of a Casati with all the details (the stay caps, lug piercings that match, GPM dropouts and brakebridge, slotted BB shell) that match the OPs.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Casati, but...

But, as you say, such pix might never be found, and I'd say given that, it might as well be called a Casati as any other...In other words: it's the best guess (so far).

I will stick my neck out and say: I bet it's Aelle tubing (26.8 seatpost).
Whatever the brand, it should make a very fine rider: similar Italian Aelle frames usually are...enjoy it.

EDIT: hope this doesn't come off as snarky, I just read it again and didn't mean to sound so snotty. I mis-read the pix as of the OPs as having (mostly) chrome so I'm curious to see a shot of what it looked like painted: got one?
All your points are well taken, but there is one aspect that I think pushes it way beyond " it's the best guess (so far)", and that is the bare tube ends that extend from the top tube with the through the top tube routing of the rear brake; I have yet to see any other bike manufacturer has that unfinished look to it. All of the Casati's that have the top tube routing, have them and no other bike manufacturer that I have seen uses anything even close.

But the easiset way to tell is to get a hold of Casati and ask them. I got this from another Casati post dated 2009;

Email: Attn: Stefania at Casati
Send: Pic and serial number of bike
Ask: For confirmation of the bike's legitimacy and origin

Stefania will get back to you. She got back to me quickly. Even offered a tour of the factory, but they were on break at our convenient time. Very nice to work with.

CASATI snc

di Casati Gianluigi & C.

Via Prampolini 7

20052 MONZA MI

Tel. ++39.039.2840442

Fax ++39.039.2321200

ciclicasati@ciclicasati.it

www.ciclicasati.it

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Old 02-15-13, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
I have yet to see any other bike manufacturer has that unfinished look to it. All of the Casati's that have the top tube routing, have them and no other bike manufacturer that I have seen uses anything even close.
But I have seen several other makes that have nearly identical internal cable routing: it's not that unique to Casati. I'll post some pics of what else is out there that matches the OPs top tube, but it will have to wait cause I'm hitting the snooze button.
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Old 02-15-13, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
But I have seen several other makes that have nearly identical internal cable routing: it's not that unique to Casati. I'll post some pics of what else is out there that matches the OPs top tube, but it will have to wait cause I'm hitting the snooze button.
I'm not saying that Casati is the only brand that has cable routing through the top tube. What I am talking about is the they way the tubes that are brazed into the top tube extend out of the top tube without any flaring on the side.
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Old 02-15-13, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
I'm not saying that Casati is the only brand that has cable routing through the top tube. What I am talking about is the they way the tubes that are brazed into the top tube extend out of the top tube without any flaring on the side.
Yes, I think I understand exactly what you're referring to, and so am I...here are 4 quick examples from Mark Bulgier's catalog scans (Battaglin, Chesini, Daccordi and Paletti) that all have the top tube cable guide just brazed into the top tube and the plain exposed guide-ends exiting the tube at "12 o'clock" position.

I'm sure you can find more examples if you want to search for them...I don't know if any of them (or the Casati) are anything like an exact match to the OP's TT cable guide treatment, and you would need to see them (or excellent pix) side-by-side to make a real comparison.

But all these brands (including the Casati) have other obvious features (like pantographed logos and distinctive stay caps, etc, etc.) that would make ID-ing a match a snap, if it was a match that is.
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battaglin_arena.jpg (98.5 KB, 42 views)
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ChesiniXuno.jpg (98.5 KB, 35 views)
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Daccordi_FS.jpg (92.3 KB, 34 views)
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Paletti_SP.jpg (100.5 KB, 34 views)
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Old 02-15-13, 02:55 PM
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Hmmm the problem is that almost all the european manufacturers put their logos somewhere and this thing has absolutely nothing. When I saw it I thought was english or french but the italian BB kind'a mislead big time. Is not japanese, again the BB shell.

My best guess based in the seatpost diameter and BB shell is that the bike it is a low end italian or french brand from back in the mid 60s. But the cable routing doesnt make any sense... low end doesnt have that cable routing

Next option is that the bike is a custom modernization of an old european brand and the cable routing was added later on together with the chrome work, chrome stuff 30 years ago was piece of cake and not that expensive.
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Old 02-16-13, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Yes, I think I understand exactly what you're referring to, and so am I...here are 4 quick examples from Mark Bulgier's catalog scans (Battaglin, Chesini, Daccordi and Paletti) that all have the top tube cable guide just brazed into the top tube and the plain exposed guide-ends exiting the tube at "12 o'clock" position.

I'm sure you can find more examples if you want to search for them...I don't know if any of them (or the Casati) are anything like an exact match to the OP's TT cable guide treatment, and you would need to see them (or excellent pix) side-by-side to make a real comparison.

But all these brands (including the Casati) have other obvious features (like pantographed logos and distinctive stay caps, etc, etc.) that would make ID-ing a match a snap, if it was a match that is.
I can't really see the cable guides in the photos but these are the cable guides on the Casatis.



Of course there are other issues such as Casati making frames for a number of other manufactures, and the lack of a similar frame that has more than one or two of the features of the OP's frame. Still I would call Casati; if nothing else it would eliminate Casati if they give it the thumbs down.

And here is a photo of a Casati with the same brake bridge as the OP's bike

Attached Images
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casati2.jpg (91.8 KB, 207 views)
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casati6.JPG (36.2 KB, 206 views)
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casati7.jpg (84.3 KB, 205 views)
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casati1.jpg (28.8 KB, 208 views)
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brake.jpg (51.8 KB, 183 views)

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Old 02-16-13, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
Hmmm the problem is that almost all the european manufacturers put their logos somewhere and this thing has absolutely nothing. When I saw it I thought was english or french but the italian BB kind'a mislead big time. Is not japanese, again the BB shell.

My best guess based in the seatpost diameter and BB shell is that the bike it is a low end italian or french brand from back in the mid 60s. But the cable routing doesnt make any sense... low end doesnt have that cable routing

Next option is that the bike is a custom modernization of an old european brand and the cable routing was added later on together with the chrome work, chrome stuff 30 years ago was piece of cake and not that expensive.
As I said before, many of the well established frame makers made frames for other brands, so there would be no logos or distinguishing cutouts; I have an old Olmo that has no identifying marks, but I can pull up several Olmo frames that are identical. Identifying a frame maker can be like identifying the creator of an unsigned painting; more of an art form than science; and I'm not the artsy guy I wish I was..

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Old 02-19-13, 02:05 PM
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Since I've never shied from beating a dead horse:
If you go to Mark Bulgier's site and actually look at the catalog scans, you can see the pages at large enough scale to see what the TT cable treatment looks like...I just posted small scale "thumbnails" since that's the default size with the forum's attachment function.
True enough, the OP's and the 3 Casati's TT guide brazing looks nearly identical, but I bet that so do several other makes that aren't Casatis...my belabored point is that that feature alone is nothing I would base an ID on...but thankfully not everybody is like me.
Neither is the GPM (or possibly Cinelli, they are nearly identical) brakebridge, since that bit was so widely used it's nearly generic.
The 2-slot BB shell is also a fairly commonplace item, as are those BB cable guides, and I get nothing from the serial number (but that's a really good thing to try to match up with Casati, or another make if somebody has an example to match, both the font and the format).
The only bits that stand out as something like a builders "signature" are the relatively unusual piercings in the lugs and those "spoon" type staycaps...those 2 thing, especially together on one frame, are more unique that all the rest...problem remains that they aren't clues I can follow up, I just don't find pics that match them.
The stay ends on the GPM dropouts are nothing distinctive, they look "straight out of the box" with minimal work before brazing...likewise the fact (am I seeing it right, tokic?) that the seat lug ears are open, and not filled-in, again points more to a "production line" product.

I don't have any idea what sort of frames Casati might have built on a contractor basis for other brands, but since you have all their contact info, onespeedbiker, maybe you will get info out of them way before tokic ever will.
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Old 02-19-13, 05:35 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Since I've never shied from beating a dead horse:
If you go to Mark Bulgier's site and actually look at the catalog scans, you can see the pages at large enough scale to see what the TT cable treatment looks like...I just posted small scale "thumbnails" since that's the default size with the forum's attachment function.
True enough, the OP's and the 3 Casati's TT guide brazing looks nearly identical, but I bet that so do several other makes that aren't Casatis...my belabored point is that that feature alone is nothing I would base an ID on...but thankfully not everybody is like me.
Neither is the GPM (or possibly Cinelli, they are nearly identical) brakebridge, since that bit was so widely used it's nearly generic.
The 2-slot BB shell is also a fairly commonplace item, as are those BB cable guides, and I get nothing from the serial number (but that's a really good thing to try to match up with Casati, or another make if somebody has an example to match, both the font and the format).
The only bits that stand out as something like a builders "signature" are the relatively unusual piercings in the lugs and those "spoon" type staycaps...those 2 thing, especially together on one frame, are more unique that all the rest...problem remains that they aren't clues I can follow up, I just don't find pics that match them.
The stay ends on the GPM dropouts are nothing distinctive, they look "straight out of the box" with minimal work before brazing...likewise the fact (am I seeing it right, tokic?) that the seat lug ears are open, and not filled-in, again points more to a "production line" product.

I don't have any idea what sort of frames Casati might have built on a contractor basis for other brands, but since you have all their contact info, onespeedbiker, maybe you will get info out of them way before tokic ever will.
You cant see on the photos, but the seatlug ears are filled, they are not open. And i really want to send an e-mail to Casati, but i always forget, i have to do this tomorow!
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Old 02-19-13, 05:39 PM
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And this frame is NICKLE PLATED and originally it had a combo of white and blue paint on the plating. Could it help?
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