Tange frames, Soma and Centurion bikes
 

Was browsing through CL and found this Soma Smoothie frame :
http://images.craigslist.org/3E13L83...eea8f31d94.jpg

Looks like a nice frame and a good project. I am just trying to decide if it is worth the $$ and effort since I already have a Centurion Ironman. Would I be building up a very similar bike here?

According to Wikipedia, Tange has three lines of tubes: Infinity, Prestige and Ultimate. The Soma is prestige frame with with a infinity folk. I think my ironman (not with me right now) has Infinity tubing. If it was reynold I can quickly assess the difference but kinda lost on the tange series. Does someone know the difference/history/insider story?

As far as I know (and I'm not certain here) Prestige is thinner gauge than Infinity. My wife's Soma Mixte also has Prestige main tubes and Infinity fork/stays. I think that's pretty typical across Soma's line of bikes.

The smoothie is praised amongst its owners. Seems to be a great frame for the money (new, at $400+), but not sure of the value if used, even considering the seller is throwing in a CK headset and a brakeset. If the frame is like new, then maybe it's a good deal.

The Ironman bikes were made with Tange #1, which was renamed from Tange Champion. Unless Tange Infinity has changed, Champion was above infinity and below prestige.

I have a Smoothie ES and really like it. If the frame is as in as good condition in person as the pics then I would say it is a good deal with all the other parts, especially if you talk him down some.

For weight, you're basically duplicating an Ironman; the tubing differences (heavier Infinity fork, lighter Prestige frame, but more of it due to relaxed geometry) are a wash. The Smoothie is less aggressive, not intended to be a competition bike. Closer would be the Stanyan. Both are better century frames than the IM, until the pace picks up; then you'll be working harder, no doubt about it.

They are simply different bikes.

The Soma Stanyan is comparable to a Centurion Semi Pro from the early 80's.
The Soma Smoothie could roughly be compared to an Elite RS or a later Lemans RS, framewise.

I'm sure it's easier to find the newer frames, and I really like the Stanyan.
Not for $600, but I really like it.

The Stanyan is slightly more aggressive than the ES, but not the Smoothie. None are real aggressive though.

Not exactly. Champion was Tange's family name for their seamless CrMo tubesets, of which their were six different grades (thickness and butting combinations). Tange (Champion) #1 was the 2nd highest of the six Champion tubesets. Prestige was a heat treated version of the top Champion tubeset. Infinity also used the same alloy but was seamed to make production more economical.

To put things into a Reynolds perspective for the OP, Prestige is roughly equivalent to Reynolds 753.

Why would somebody put an Infinity fork on a Prestige frame? Putting a relatively heavy, seamed fork on a very light frame is strange, to say the least.

"Champion" was Tange's brand name for their seamless Chrome-Moly tube sets. The numbers designated differences in wall thickness, not quality. Thus a Champion #1" tube set was lighter than a "Champion #2" set, but of the same quality. "Prestige" tubing was heat-treated Champion tubing.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/champion-tube-system.jpg

By the mid 80's, the Tange 2 was about 2.2 oz heavier than a Tange 1 for a 58cm frameset, per what I've read, but actually riding a 56cm Tange 2 Lemans RS vs a 56cm Tange 1 Ironman, I can't tell, weight-wise. The geometry is different enough, however, to be noticeable.

I'm pretty sure if I was blindbolded and put on a bike, the geometry would be something I could tell from bike to bike, but the weight, not.

the difference in weight is like an empty water bottle :lol:

Just met this local (by local, he lives 5 blocks away in my suburb neighborhood!!) framebuilder who raced Keirin professionally for 17 years in Japan and even represented the country on the national team. I was showing him my Ironman and talking about Tange. He said Tange 1 is nice and light, but he always preferred racing with Tange 2, because while slightly heavier, the frame didn't flex as much as a result of barely thicker tubing!

So sometimes one tube isn't necessarily always better than the other -- it all depends on the purpose and use of the bike =]

There you have it.
Buy a Lemans RS or an Elite RS.

Just kidding.
If you like and ride your bike, it's the right one for you.
I've seen the same mixte in 3 triathlons, and it has a bell.
He has as much, if not more, fun than anyone.

Great info, guys. Always interesting to read all things centurion related.
Looks like I will say pass on the soma. I have this itch to build a bike myself and this looked like a solid frame (for touring maybe?).
On the other hand, my centurion bike cost less than half of this frame alone, lol. love that bike.

Found a Le mans. What chances.

Looks like an exact copy of my RS accordo, with the same groups, looks and everything. except it is actually my size,

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8...dc0e0986_b.jpg

^ That looks surprising like the Miyata 312 I built for my wife. ^

I guess I need to take picture one of these days.

to testify to the awesomeness of the "ghetto" RS: i got broad-sided by a civic charging through a crowd of people. my RS bounced off his car. like...BOUNCED. frame is/was completely straight after that incident. i know everyone loves dave scott's name and the shiny tange 1 sticker...but i believe there's something to that tange 2 after what i've been through.

I remember seeing that bike, very sweet. Do those use tange tubing too? maybe thats why.

Man I am seriously tempted now, but one thing makes it a no go: the original hood and the bar tape is not very adequate. Hurts my hands during long rides (>6miles).

or is it because my current bike is too small so i place more weights on my hand?

The Miyat 312 came out in 1987. By that time Miyata had been making their own CrMo tubing for several years. Prior to establishing their own tube mill Miyata did use Tange and the tubing Miyata developed was very similar, however this has nothing to do with the similar appearance which is more to do with standardized tube sizes and similar geometry and components at given price points for a specific year.

You need to get the fit right. Then, you could get some Gel cushions, then wrap it with some nice cushioned wrap, and you'll see a world of difference (75% of it will be fit, the other 25% is cushioning, be it cushions, wrap, or gloves).

I guess it's now a moot point, but I absolutely love mine. I got the frame a few years ago (almost new) in a seriously sweet deal: frame, IRD C/F fork, & King headset, from a friend & LBS owner for a mere $300.

I've since built it up as an HG 3 x 8 w/ 105 & Ultegra (55/6500), restored RSX 8sp shifters (enduring thanks & a shout out to Jim McVey!), a 105-hubbed/ DT-rimmed wheelset, Thompson seatpost, Nitto M-186 ergo drops, and my favorite beat-up, perfectly worn-in, Fizik Arione saddle; I've got it set up as an excellent hill climber and I plan on riding it in this year's Tour de Blast.

The Prestige tubeset gives a lively ride, and it's always performed beautifully in multiple roles- as a quick commuter, rain bike, stand-in (with a rack fitted) for my tourer, as a straight-up sport bike when I've needed to work on my LeMond. It hasn't failed me even once in three years.

Agreed- the Stanyans are excellent bikes... But I'd say the Smoothie is more comparable still to the Bianchi Volpe than the Lemans RS.