Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

old large erd 700c rim and tire choice

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

old large erd 700c rim and tire choice

Old 03-11-13, 08:16 PM
  #1  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: on the beach
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
old large erd 700c rim and tire choice

backstory: i'm building up my new '84 club fuji that came with mismatched 700c rims (one was gold colored), so i placed a cl advert for a silver colored rim. i thought i scored a great deal with a reply for two shimano 600 hubs laced to ambrosio 19 extra elite rims (36h). the hubs are just beautiful and the built up wheels are true and seemed a perfect match for this build. i also scored an ebay auction of my first ever set of folding panaracer paselas to mount on this wheelset.

problem: the rims seem to be big in diameter. i don't know the erd, but when i compare the wheels to both 27" and 700c wheels, the ambrosios fall somewhere in between. i swapped the front ambrosio wheel with two different bikes (with these two different wheel sizes) and found that the ambrosios would work with the brake reach on both bikes with a little adjustment in the brake pad. when the ambrosios are placed in the intended fuji with shimano 600 calipers, the reach barely works with the pad all the way toward to the top.

major issue: fitting the folding paselas is one of the most difficult things i've ever done. i don't know what labor during birth is like, but now i can guess. it's just not worth it. at first, i thought these new tires were mislabeled defectives and asked the ebay seller about them. he assured me they were good, but very tght fitting. i love the idea of using these tires, but i can't imagine having to change a flat on the road. i've gone through two tubes, two tire levers, successfully mounted only one tire so far, and have almost run out of patience.

questions: what gum sidewall tire would be a better choice? should i just man up and go to war with this rim/tire combo? would the cheaper nonfolding pasela be easier to mount? can you suggest another gum sidewall tire in this price range that would give me more confidence in changing a flat on the road? is it possible to mount and successfully ride the folding pasela in the 27" size on this rim? should i question greater meanings like my own existence and everything i've done to date? can anything be overcome, or are there dead ends where all hope is lost?

thank you in advance for your guidance and exceptional mentoring capabilities, good people of the forum.
eschlwc is offline  
Old 03-11-13, 08:35 PM
  #2  
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,846

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,054 Times in 1,254 Posts
General searches for "Abrosio 19 Elite rims tires too tight" will generate lots of quality hits. Many of us have broken tire irons getting tires on the rims.

I love the rims, they are strong and never go out of true it seems. But if I have to mount a tire on them, it has to be a training tire like a Conti gatorskin with a tuffy liner. I want 10 years out of those before seeing them off the rim again.
clubman is offline  
Old 03-11-13, 08:47 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Posts: 8,343
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
ERD and BSD are not the same thing, though some rims have deeper walls than others. Some rims and folding tires are just really tough. A different brand of tire is not likely to help. Have you tried either of these?

Kool Stop tire jack.



VAR Super Tyre tool

__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline  
Old 03-11-13, 08:52 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,828 Times in 1,995 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
General searches for "Abrosio 19 Elite rims tires too tight" will generate lots of quality hits. Many of us have broken tire irons getting tires on the rims.
Ambrosio 19's are "big". I think the problem is the ultimate radius beyond the bead seat diameter, BSD, not ERD which is more used with spoke length calculation. Your best hope is to make sure both beads at one side of the rim are as deep in the spoke trench as possible and keep them there on both sides as you work your way around.

Here is an explainer:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

Not all 700c tires are exactly the same, some are tight no matter the rim. I forget which tires are large at the bead.

A telling comment, I bought a set of NOS rims off ebay once and taped to the outside of my rims were a pair of very lightly used Ambrosio 19's. I got them for free basically, now you know why.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-11-13, 09:13 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Pars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 2,418

Bikes: '73 Raleigh RRA, 1986 Trek 500 commuter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
I've never had much trouble with mine, must be lucky? I've had the following tires on them:

Specialized Turbos in both 23 and 25
Ritchey Tom Slicks in 25
Continental Gatorskins in 28s
Conti GP4 Seasons in 28s

I can rarely put tires on without an iron for the 1st bead. Yeah, the set of MA40s I have is easier, as were the Matrix ISOs. The tire jack might help the OP; never had or used one though they look like a good thing to have around.
Pars is offline  
Old 03-11-13, 09:32 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
mikemowbz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,324

Bikes: Are several.

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 21 Posts
I guess maybe it works out for me that when I replaced the old crackly Conti's on my set of these I happened to be in enough of a hurry (having just had one tire go out on me downtown on my way to something) that I had the LBS do the switch for new Gatorskins. They didn't say anything about it being a problem, but they have their professional pride...
mikemowbz is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 03:14 PM
  #7  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: on the beach
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman
... if I have to mount a tire on them, it has to be a training tire like a Conti gatorskin with a tuffy liner...
i'm not familiar with training tires, how they differ, or their intended use. but i do have a set of conti ultra 2000s i got through a trade because i thought they were my favorite, sport 1000s. i think they're considered 'training.' should they be used with a liner?

Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd
…Have you tried either of these..?
not yet. but i just bought the var tool from the uk ebay site. now ... can i wait til i receive it before trying my hand at this tire/rim combo again..? it's almost like religious self flagellation is calling out to me.

Originally Posted by repechage
... I think the problem is the ultimate radius beyond the bead seat diameter, BSD, not ERD... Here is an explainer: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
that went right over my head. i'll have to brush up on my bsd knowledge.

I forget which tires are large at the bead.
wish i knew the bsd of this rim and similar size of available tires.

Originally Posted by Pars
...I've had the following tires on them:
Specialized Turbos in both 23 and 25
Ritchey Tom Slicks in 25
Continental Gatorskins in 28s
Conti GP4 Seasons in 28s
thanks for that. is it true that wire/non folding tires are easier to install than the folding type?
eschlwc is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 03:40 PM
  #8  
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,846

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,054 Times in 1,254 Posts
Conti Gatorskins are puncture resistant and heavier than high end race tires. Good for those that train. Tuffy liners are another means of guarding against punctures, an effective but somewhat dated approach, good for urban commuting. The point is to avoid flats when using those rims.

When others say they had no problem mounting rubber on Elite 19's, I wonder if the manufacturer put them through a retooling. I tried 4 different tires on these rims with limited to no success.
clubman is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 05:02 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Pars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 2,418

Bikes: '73 Raleigh RRA, 1986 Trek 500 commuter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Dunno, maybe they did? Mine are part of a wheelset I had built back in 1980 IIRC. I am not particularly afraid of mine in terms of fixing on the road, but if you have a set that is a beatch to mount tires on, good advice.
Pars is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 05:35 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My Ambrosio Elite are a bit tough to get a tire on, but I've seen worse.
hagen2456 is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 08:16 PM
  #11  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: on the beach
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by hagen2456
... I've seen worse.
worse would be giving birth to an alien. but maybe not, as, at least with alien birth, there's no choice. here, when you're struggling putting a tire on a rim and your hand is cramping, bleeding, seeing visions, you wonder, "what the hell am i doing?" and then you start to question everything. alien birth might be easier. with that, at least there is no existential dilemma.
eschlwc is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 09:36 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,828 Times in 1,995 Posts
The BSD, or bead seat diameter is the diameter of the seat that the rim has for the bead, the "hook" zone. from my quick measure of the Ambrosio 19's I have the rim cross section is a bit taller so it goes up the tire more, about 1 mm, not much but enough. Design error? Tooling error? Just worried about the new high pressure tires blowing off the rim? Who knows.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-12-13, 10:13 PM
  #13  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: on the beach
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
interesting. but "1mm" does not quite do justice in explaining this paricular folding pasela/ambrosio rim combo. could be these paselas are really 26" and the gods are momentarily having their way with me.
eschlwc is offline  
Old 03-13-13, 08:04 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Pars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 2,418

Bikes: '73 Raleigh RRA, 1986 Trek 500 commuter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by eschlwc
thanks for that. is it true that wire/non folding tires are easier to install than the folding type?
Not sure. All the tires I listed were wire bead with the exception of the Conti GP4 Seasons. I think I also put a set of Vittoria Corsa Evo Cx on these as well, which are folding and 23s. Don't recall having much of a problem with them either. I do recall at times wishing I had 3 tire levers though, and I think it was with these rims

repechage could be right on the BSD being a bit large. The center channel, where you try to get the first bead on down into, is small compared to other rims as well, making it more difficult to get the all important 2nd bead on.

Another note: as built, mine had the narrow (10/11mm) Velox rim strips in them and worked that way for 20 years. When I changed tires, I started having pinch flats (walking home 2-5 miles every ride), which got old fast. I changed the rim strips out to the 17mm Velox and problem solved.

Last edited by Pars; 03-13-13 at 08:08 AM.
Pars is offline  
Old 03-13-13, 03:43 PM
  #15  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: on the beach
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
^ interesting tip on the rim tape. i'll change it -- could be my issue with the one tire i haven't yet mounted successfully.
eschlwc is offline  
Old 03-14-13, 04:41 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by eschlwc
i'm not familiar with training tires, how they differ, or their intended use.
They're typically tougher but also heavier and with more rolling resistance than high-end racing tyres. Some of them are quite nice, though, and even cheap. I like the Schwalbe Lugano. Not as puncture safe as Gatorskins, but still a nice compromise throughout wintertime. The Pasela TG are a little more puncture resistant, but also a bit heavier, i believe.

is it true that wire/non folding tires are easier to install than the folding type?
In a way, yes, as (I think that) most folding tyres come with the warning that you should not use any tools to mount them (Maybe the kevlar bead is more fragile than the steel bead on standard tyres?). I've been forced to use a (plastic) tool, anyway, and the tyres seemed to survive it

Good tip about the rim tape, by the way.
hagen2456 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
soymateofeo
Bicycle Mechanics
5
04-11-13 05:46 PM
China DIapers
Bicycle Mechanics
10
11-10-12 01:11 PM
Myosmith
Bicycle Mechanics
8
04-12-12 08:38 PM
milkbaby
Bicycle Mechanics
2
08-01-11 04:42 PM
Frobozz
Bicycle Mechanics
7
07-27-10 06:26 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.