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Ramblings on a Cannondale ST600, efficient 7-speed gearing and weight weenie project

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Ramblings on a Cannondale ST600, efficient 7-speed gearing and weight weenie project

Old 04-08-13, 03:35 PM
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Ramblings on a Cannondale ST600, efficient 7-speed gearing and weight weenie project

I think we all go through trends in our C&V collecting. As of late, I have been culling road bikes that don't move me or fit me and have been focusing more on allarounders, including possible new steel. As part of this, I have been playing around with my ST600 and am always impressed with its speed, quickness, stable handling and ability to take on trails and, occasionally, jump curbs, as well as it's versatility and lots of brazeons. Part of it is the fit and the fact that it has roadish angles. And, it can take tires up to 39mm.

So, as I have been perusing modern steel allarounders and gravel grinders, I keep coming back to the conclusion that I'm not seeing anything that suits my needs in this category any better than the Cannondale.

That, then, caused me to think about whether I can further modify and improve it, including more efficient gearing and possible weight reduction.

Here is the original catalog description (towards the end).

https://www.vintagecannondale.com/year/1990/1990.pdf


Here is the subject bike: a 1990 ST600, largely stock but with some of my modifications.





Gearing

As some of you know, I like experimenting with drivetrains and like to set up bikes on the theory that each chainring represents a separate drivetrain that I stay in until I have a need to move to another. This usually calls for a tighter cassette.

Here, using the original 27" 7-speed wheels, I have a 13-23 cassette and a 46-36-26 crankset. This gives me tight gearing within each chainring drivetrain and produces surprising little redundancy between the big and the middle, and the middle and the small.

Here are the gear numbers from Sheldon's calculator. Sheldon's chart does not cut and paste well, but you get the idea.

46 36 26
13 95.8 75.0 54.2
7.7 %
14 89.0 69.6 50.3
7.1 %
15 83.0 65.0 46.9
13.3 %
17 73.3 57.3 41.4
11.8 %
19 65.6 51.3 37.1
10.5 %
21 59.3 46.4 33.5
9.5 %
23 54.2 42.4 30.6

Weight Reduction:

I am thinking about doing some reasonable weight reduction to see if I can get the stock 25 lb weight down a bit, while still retaining sufficient sturdiness for multi surface use. Could I get it to 22 lb? How about 20 lb?

I would appreciate your ideas and examples. Here are the options I've thought about, from least to most extreme.

1) Wheels. I am using these 27" Mistral wheels primarily because they came with the bike and I really like the 32mm Gators that came with them. A very lively 32mm tire. These wheels are 36 spoke touring/commuting wheels. What if I went lighter 700 wheels, such as Mavic Pro's with DA hubs," how much weight would I save?


2) Drivetrain. The stock Deore LX is bulletproof is very heavy. What if I replaced the RD with a 9-speed Ultegra RD and the crank with an FSA Gossamer compact? I wouldn't be surprised if this reduced weight by 1.5 lbs.

3) Fork and stem. The most intrusive would be to replace them with a carbon cyclocross fork and a threadless stem.

Again, your thoughts are welcome.
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Old 04-08-13, 04:25 PM
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I've been looking into this as well but for my SR900. While I totally understand your enthusiasm for this project I just don't see why you would go WW on a vintage touring bike that's already 25lbs. You're going to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get the bike from 25lbs to MAYBE 20lbs. If you were doing this to a road bike with speed and/or climbing in mind then I'd say go for it if you have the cash. But if you're dead set then here are a few links to forks.
https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...1_10000_200456
https://www.aspirevelotech.com/Mercha...y_Code=WOUNDUP
https://www.bikepartsplace.com/discount/fork-gs-10/
(there are others, just google-fu)

Then you'd need to ditch the 27" wheels, get some sub 30c tires, new headset, stem, handlebars, brifters (expensive!) and then you MIGHT be approaching 20lbs, and you've just spent $1000+
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Old 04-08-13, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I've been looking into this as well but for my SR900. While I totally understand your enthusiasm for this project I just don't see why you would go WW on a vintage touring bike that's already 25lbs. You're going to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get the bike from 25lbs to MAYBE 20lbs. If you were doing this to a road bike with speed and/or climbing in mind then I'd say go for it if you have the cash. But if you're dead set then here are a few links to forks.
https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...1_10000_200456
https://www.aspirevelotech.com/Mercha...y_Code=WOUNDUP
https://www.bikepartsplace.com/discount/fork-gs-10/
(there are others, just google-fu)

Then you'd need to ditch the 27" wheels, get some sub 30c tires, new headset, stem, handlebars, brifters (expensive!) and then you MIGHT be approaching 20lbs, and you've just spent $1000+
Actually, I have everything I would need except for the fork. I think 1 & 2 could shed 2.5 lbs.
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Old 04-08-13, 05:41 PM
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If I were sitting on such a nice ST600, I'd spring for the veloce triple controls and go with 8 speed shimergo using an indexed RD you might have lying around (assuming reach for something like ultegra open pro 700's on the canti's). Comparing it to modern tourers, your 25 lbs is still pretty trim. You might be in for some newer ramp/pin rings, or a bit of file work on the ones you have. For an all rounder, you couldn't do a whole lot better without spending a whole lot more.
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Old 04-08-13, 05:48 PM
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Hm, I'm not able to see a WW build without some compromises.

Can you go 700C on this if this was built for 27"? Is there enough adjustment room?

You'd have to get a carbon 700C fork, which will have a shorter A/C measurement. It'll effectively make all the angles steeper and make the bike handle differently.

Crank? I'd spring for ultegra 9s octalink or the external bb hollowtech ultegras that can be found for <$100. Don't get Gossamers... they are terrible cranks. Go compact with a wider range.

You could use a more modern pedal system. Speedplays are my favorite.

Not sure if it's worth it...
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Old 04-08-13, 06:02 PM
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Thanks all. Yes, the cantis have sufficient reach for 700. I've had heavy 700's on before. All good ideas.
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Old 04-08-13, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RFC View Post
Actually, I have everything I would need except for the fork. I think 1 & 2 could shed 2.5 lbs.
Then do it, what are you waiting for?
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Old 04-08-13, 09:04 PM
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Does anyone know what the Mistral M17 Duranomic 27" rims weigh? I've search without an answer.
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Old 04-09-13, 10:41 AM
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No clue. I have compared some C'dale ST's and the R's side by side, and they sure look a lot alike, which may account for your enthusiasm for the ST and a roadie and not "just" a tourer. They make lively flat-bar road bikes, too, by the way. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Figure each 12oz saved is a can of good stuff you can carry.
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Old 04-09-13, 11:18 AM
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nice build, i'm going for a weight weenie approach with my 96 Specialized M2 pro.
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Old 04-09-13, 04:03 PM
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RFC, To give you some idea...a 56 cm '86 SR weighs 3.9 lbs. and the steel fork weighs ~ 1.5 lbs. and I expect the build will be ~ 22 lbs. My '89 CR weighs 18 lbs., but it's frame is a little lighter (I never thought to weigh it bare) per Cannondale. FWIW your ST is 1 lb. lighter than my '95 T bike.

The biggest chunks of weight to be lost are in the wheelset, tires, bottom bracket, saddle, headset and pedals. It's going to co$t and you might be able to under shoot my SR.

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Old 04-09-13, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
RFC, To give you some idea...a 56 cm '86 SR weighs 3.9 lbs. and the steel fork weighs ~ 1.5 lbs. and I expect the build will be ~ 22 lbs. My '89 CR weighs 18 lbs., but it's frame is a little lighter (I never thought to weigh it bare) per Cannondale. FWIW your ST is 1 lb. lighter than my '95 T bike.

The biggest chunks of weight to be lost are in the wheelset, tires, bottom bracket, saddle, headset and pedals. It's going to co$t and you might be able to under shoot my SR.

Brad
Thanks Brad. I recall reading somewhere that the ST frame in the small size came in at about 3.4 lbs, which could mean that my 56 would still be at or under 4 lbs, which is still lighter than many of the modern allarounder steel frames. It is beefier, however, than my 87 Blueberry, which is already beefy. I'm still thinking about this, but want to preserve the classic look, so no threadless carbon fork. However, wheels and drivetrain are still on the table. I am guessing that I could shave about 1 lb going to a set of Mavic Open Pro/DA hubs/butted spokes wheels I have around here (bought off of CL for $50). And, I'm not kidding about the LX RD and crank. The LX is heavy. I did a blind test with several family members who could care less about components. They all concluded that the LX RD was substantially heavier than the same period XT. The Ultegra should be a fraction of that. I need to get a scale. So, maybe another 1 to 1.5 pounds, which would put me at 22.5 with no investment in parts. Regarding pedals, I think I'll go with Shimano A520 SPD. Again, just mulling over this when I should be thinking about more important matters.
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Old 04-09-13, 06:54 PM
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I think you're right, the Ultegra stuff is lighter. If memory serves correctly, this one came in just under 22 pounds without the rack.
Those are Ultegra hubs on Velocity 700c rims. Could have knocked more off with a carbon seatpost:
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Old 04-09-13, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RFC View Post
... I am guessing that I could shave about 1 lb going to a set of Mavic Open Pro/DA hubs/butted spokes wheels I have around here (bought off of CL for $50). The Ultegra should be a fraction of that. I need to get a scale. So, maybe another 1 to 1.5 pounds, which would put me at 22.5 with no investment in parts. Regarding pedals, I think I'll go with Shimano A520 SPD. Again, just mulling over this when I should be thinking about more important matters.
That's much the same wheelset I have on the CR; Open Pro CD 28H, D-A hubs and 2.0/1.8 DT spokes. The Ultegra will be lighter, no doubt, and you may want to crunch some numbers using a compact double.

Have fun,
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Old 04-09-13, 08:01 PM
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And with a threadless carbon fork, lighter wheels and tires, and lighter skewers (man old school campy skewers are heavy!) it's very possible to get sub-20lbs. I'm gonna have to do this..
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Old 04-09-13, 08:22 PM
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22lbs with a compact double and such a solid wheelset on a frame that you can tour on, and is otherwise bomb proof... IS worthy of your thoughts even when you should be thinking about more important matters...

I'd go 8 speed cassette of the 12-28 MTB variety with a 46/30 crank (converted triple with a TA 46 inner ring), but now I'm just planting ideas in your head...
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Old 04-09-13, 08:25 PM
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Yeah or even 9s. I'm planning on getting a 9s dura-ace cassette on a bladed low spoke count set of Shimano wheels on my SR. But that's not necessarily a touring wheelset. My point is it would work and be lighter..
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Old 04-10-13, 03:58 AM
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RFK, Sometimes pondering the trivial is a good break from the real world...my SR build is on hold just for that reason.

I think, rccardr's, bike in post 13 is a reasonable light weight ST, with some concessions for function, reliability and appearance. You'll feel the biggest difference with the lighter wheelset and some 28 mm tires.

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Old 04-10-13, 04:48 AM
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I would start with the wheels and tires. Borrow a friends 700c wheelset and see if they can be used with your cantilever brakes. Cantilever brakes have a range of adjustment and sometimes can accept the smaller diameter of the 700c wheel.

If 700c wheels fit, install a good quality modern rim. I like Mavic Open Pro, Velocity A23 and HED Belgium C2 rims for road and trail.

Also, use a more supple tire than the wire bead Gatorskin.

Consider these in a 700x32 to 700x28 size;

Grand Bois Cypress (this 700x30 runs large near 32mm wide) : https://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
??TPI, Near smooth tread, tan sidewall

Clement LAX clincer: https://clementcycling.com/88/las-clincher
120 TPI, file tread, tan sidewall

Challenge Grifo XS 32 Open: https://www.challengetech.it/products...xs-open-020/en
260 TPI, file tread, tan sidewall

Challenge Parigi-Roubaix (this 700x27 tire runs large near 29mm wide) : https://www.challengetech.it/products...ix-open-016/en
260 TPI, textured tread, tan sidewall

Schwalbe Marathon Racer 700x30: https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_ti...thon_racer_429
??TPI, near smooth tread, flat protection

Vittoria Rubino Pro Tech 700x28: https://www.vittoria.com/product/rubino/
150TPI, smooth center & textures shoulders tread, flat protection layer
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Old 04-10-13, 12:34 PM
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Alright, I'm going to do this. It should be fun and produce a positive result for a great bike platform.

I will keep yous posted here with my step-by-step process and I meander through Weight Weenie Land. I have two sets of wheels to weight:

1) Mavic Open Pro / DA Hubs

2) Mavic CPX 33 / Ultegra Hubs

But first, I need a scale.

And thanks for the tire recommendations. Great selection! Tires are an issue here in the SW and the home of the Goathead, so I have to think about that one.
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Old 04-10-13, 01:42 PM
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Let me know which scale you wind up with and how you like it, I've been wanting one too. Good luck, I can't wait to see the progress since I will essentially be doing the same thing with my SR.
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Old 04-14-13, 12:29 AM
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Alright, I got my scale and spent Saturday night playing weight weenie. This is really fun!

Here is the build at the start of the experiment -- 26.5 lbs and over the stock 25 lbs due to the rack and Thompson/Brooks.



My numbers are a little fuzzy, particularly with the wheel weights since I did not strip everything down to nubs, but reverse engineered from known tire weights, etc.

The biggest weight loss is in the wheels. There is literally a 2 lb difference between the 27" Mistrals/LX hubs and the 700 Mavic Pro/DA hubs. I'll go into more detail later, but, picking up 100 grams here and there with what I had on hand, which is not Weight Weenie stuff (Ultegra 6500, Ritchey crank, etc) and dumping the Brooks and rack, I am relatively confident I could get it down to the low 22 lb range. BTW, the Shimano Ultegra 6500 and the 600 Tricolor RD both weigh 220 - 230 grams. Real WW components could get it to 20 lbs -- for a full blown touring bike!

Since I'm not going the full WW route, I am now considering tradeoffs for functionality:

1) Retain the LX Triple and BB at a .35 lb penality.

2) Keep the rack at a <1 lb penalty.

3) Change the seatpost, but keep the Brooks at a .5 lb penalty.

I also plan to make some performance changes that will add little weight:

Even with these compromises, I think I can come in at about 23.5 lb. I don't think that's too bad.

I also plan to make some performance changes that will add little weight:

1) 9-speed cassette

2) Nitto Deluxe stem

3) Tektro straddle cable hangers

4) Nitto 42cm bar to replace the 38

5) Tektro brake levers to replace the handhatchet Shimanos.

Cheers.

Last edited by RFC; 04-14-13 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 04-14-13, 04:36 AM
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RFC, Seems like a good mini build. Some weight will be lost and still retain and even add some creature comforts.

I'd try the Open Pro wheelset first, but if you're going to add much weight on to the rack the CXP33 wheelset maybe the better choice.

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Old 02-22-18, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RFC View Post
The biggest weight loss is in the wheels. There is literally a 2 lb difference between the 27" Mistrals/LX hubs and the 700 Mavic Pro/DA hubs.
Reviving this old thread:

I'm thinking about getting new wheels for my 1991 ST600 which has 700c Mistral rims and SunTour X1 hubs. (I think Cannondale changed from 27" in 1990 to 700c in 1991). I'm planning to use it for commuting and I'm thinking that a new, wide rim wheel set would be lighter and more comfortable. The HED Ardennes GT is available for $350 and it specifies hub compatibility for Shimano 9, 10, 11. The freewheel on my ST600 is SunTour 7-speed Accushift. Would I be able to use the HED wheel with the SunTour freewheel, or would I need to replace it?

My SunTour X-1 rear derailleur frequently jumps a cog, and the front derailleur will not shift easily onto the smallest of the 3 chains, so I could replace these too, but not sure that I want to invest that much in bike that I'm using for a 10 mile commute. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Old 02-23-18, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GailT View Post
Reviving this old thread:

I'm thinking about getting new wheels for my 1991 ST600 which has 700c Mistral rims and SunTour X1 hubs. (I think Cannondale changed from 27" in 1990 to 700c in 1991). I'm planning to use it for commuting and I'm thinking that a new, wide rim wheel set would be lighter and more comfortable. The HED Ardennes GT is available for $350 and it specifies hub compatibility for Shimano 9, 10, 11. The freewheel on my ST600 is SunTour 7-speed Accushift. Would I be able to use the HED wheel with the SunTour freewheel, or would I need to replace it?

My SunTour X-1 rear derailleur frequently jumps a cog, and the front derailleur will not shift easily onto the smallest of the 3 chains, so I could replace these too, but not sure that I want to invest that much in bike that I'm using for a 10 mile commute. Thanks in advance for any advice.
You'll get more responses if you start your own thread. The drop outs on your bike are likely 126 mm; a new wheelset will be 130 mm. With steel bikes it is a piece of cake to spread the frame. With aluminum bikes. some say it can be done, others are not so sure. There are threads on this.

Why don't you buy a decent 126 mm new wheelset with silver, alloy rims that will look right on this bike?

Velomine has 27 inch and 700c 126 mm wheels are very reasonable prices:

Sun Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike

No that suntour freewheel won't work on a new wheelset. Likely time for a new chain which may mean that you need to replace the freewheel but once you do that you will lose indexing unless you find an older suntour f'wheel. Getting the bike fixed up is no big deal. This is a fine bike and well worth fixing up but start your own thread.
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