ohjonnybegoode

My knowledge of anything Gitane is...well...I don't have any. Seller is saying this is a '72 Tour De France that was repainted in the '70s as a "Jesolo Tour De France team bike". It's a bit of a Frankenbike, but it looks like it's in overall good shape...

Can anyone confirm by the photos below that this is, in fact, a Tour De France? Does anyone have any info onthis Jesolo Team? My google searches have been inconclusive.

Thank you!

Chombi

From the brazed on items that I see on the frame, I don't think that its as old as a 72 bike....more like very late 70's or early 80's at least.....

Chombi

Wulf

The brazed on bits could have been added during the repaint. What worries me is the stamped dropouts with no derailer spur. I thought the TDF had Campy dropouts.

Chombi

If it did have Campy dropouts, it will be easier to confirm the year/era of manufacture date of this bike. The Simplex dropout does generally point towards a French bike, at least.

Chombi

unworthy1

those are early Simplex DOs and Simplex is what a TdF should have (Campy means it's a Super Corsa, not a TdF) and the fact thats there's a claw RD could be because that DO is not threaded...other details look "Gitane" enough and early '70s enough but I don't see the rear loop for centerpull brake...maybe this is one that came stock with optional sidepulls...maybe not...more detail shots would help.

kc0yef 

Yeah what he said +1
rear Center pull brake bridge being gone is an absolute deal breaker if it is in fact a 1972

A "Professional" model and the text would read PROFESSIONAL in big Yellow letters might not have the center pull loop but this is not one of those.

ohjonnybegoode

Thanks all for your responses...I don't have the bike in my possession, so I can't supply better photos yet. Might this be a later TDF? I'm only spending a little more than $200 for the bike, so it's not a big investment, just trying to figure out what this might be and if it's been misrepresented...thanks again!

unworthy1

I think that it's definitely French, possibly Gitane, probably an early '70s frame that's been treated to later braze-ons when it was painted...I think worth the $200 but the jury's out pending those better pix.

Grand Bois

It's a Gitane, no doubt whatsoever. I suppose it could be a TdF, but I've only seen those dropouts on low end bikes like my Jeunet 620.

What is the seat post size? It should be about 26.4 for Reynolds 531.

southpawboston

True, but some Reynolds 531 bikes came with these droupouts, as did my Jeunet 630.

rootboy 

And make sure the derailleur hanger hasn't been hacked off.

Grand Bois

I'll bet it never had one.

unworthy1

Yes, now that I dug around and found a pic: it's likely that this style "Juy Simplex" drop-out (more stamped than forged) did not have a RD hanger...though the forged models did.
The other fact to remember is that Gitane was famous/infamous for winging it when it came to building frames with whatever came to hand...there's more than one TdF model that came with Campy and Huret ends even though they should have been Simplex.

(Catalog page courtesy of the GitaneUSA site)

LeicaLad 

Hmmm.

Well, first, if this is your size, then it certainly looks worth $200.

That said, I'd agree with the above: It looks French, "could be" a Gitane, but I have serious doubts that it is a TdF.

In '72, there would be a rear brake cable hanger. The photos are really limiting, as it is hard to see the seat cluster clearly. The brake bridge has a Gitane look.

The drop-outs, however, are a real concern. It is true that Gitane swapped around, but I've never seen those dropouts on any better Gitane. There is a nice thread on a period Gitane Interclub that gives you an idea of the model one step down from the TdF. It has nicer dropouts than this. Hence, I remain suspicious of it being a TdF.

Everyone has noted the braze-ons would have to have been added, which also means any decals or other markings are whatever were pasted on.

Still, if it is your size, I looks like it would be a tight and responsive rider.

I presume Chas will have some insights to share, too. Chas?

ohjonnybegoode

Thank you all again for your replies...very helpful...I also posted the same info over on the Gitane USA message board, and I thought some of you might be interested in the one response I received from verktyg:

"It's probably a late 1960s Gitane Tour de France, maybe 1970 or 71???

Tour de France bikes were nice but they were a 2nd tier model (I have 5 Gitane Tour de France bikes from 1969 to 1984).

This bike has Simplex Ref-881-881B dropouts without an integral rear derailleur hanger.

Because of parts and component shortages during the bike boom era, Gitane used at least 4 different style Simplex rear dropouts."

I suppose it's likely it will never be a "confirmed" Tour de France, but, I'm hoping it's a least a good rider...

Grand Bois

Both ends of the seat stays give it away as a Gitane.

unworthy1

Gitane was not the only French make that "scalloped" the stay-ends...but I agree that there are other touches (like the seat cluster) that seem "Gitane-ish" and if Chas says so, then it is so.

Grand Bois

"Fishmouth" stay ends.

rootboy 

I had to go look. The mouths on my fish are mostly filled with sloppy brazing material.

unworthy1

fish or shellfish...mmmm...how about a compromise?
Scalloped Shark!

ohjonnybegoode

So I picked up the "Jesolo" tonight...interesting backstory from the owner. The gentleman (Tom) is probably in his early 60s...he said he belonged to several bike teams in the early to mid-70s...the first being Jesolo, which was based in Italy. When Jesolo started a U.S. based team, Tom was selected to be part of it. Jesolo took each US member's bikes and repainted them team colors (including this one). Tom rode it for another nine or so months, then Jesolo issued team-member bikes, and Tom hung the bike up, fiddling with it and riding it recreationally over the years.

Bike is in great shape...althought it is a repaint, it looks terrific...can't wait to ride this bad boy!

verktyg 

This bike was discussed on the GitaneUSA.com website. Gitane as with most European Reynolds 531 production bikes of that era where made of heavier gage tubing. A larger frame size such as this Jesolo/Gitane should ride very nice.

The 1.0mm x 0.7mm wall thickness butted main tubes will give it sufficient rigidity but still maintain a "supple" ride. It will have the French style racing geometry from that era that earned those bikes a reputation for all day long comfort.

BTW, 1.0mm x 0.7mm wall thickness Reynolds 531 is the same as Columbus "heavy gage" SP tubing. Compare that to the 1.5mm to 2.0mm wall thickness main tubes found on entry level "gas pipe" frames of the day...

BTW2, Gitane introduced the Mylar® foil decals in 1968 and continued them pretty much unchanged until 1974. The foil decal Tour de France didn't make it onto the US market until 1969. They had all Reynolds 531 frames whereas the European market TdFs were only "3 TUBES RENFORCE" frames (only the 3 main tubes).

The European bikes came with either Simplex or Huret derailleurs. The rear dropouts had an integral derailleur hanger and were either the proprietary Simplex or proprietary Huret style. So, when you see a Gitane TdF with Huret rear dropouts, the frames only had Reynolds 531 in the 3 main tubes.

Hint: a TdF frame with domed ends on the forks and stays are only 3 TUBES RENFORCE. The all Reynolds 531 Gitanes have fish mouthed tube ends.

BTW3, Gitane used mostly Simplex or Huret fork ends. For whatever reason, a few bike boom era TdFs came with Campagnolo rear dropouts. That DOES NOT make the frame a Super Corsa! The difference was the headset spacing not the dropouts! TdF frames were made to take Stronglight P3 headsets with a 33mm stack height. Super Corsa frames used Campy headsets with ~41mm stack height.

Huret fork end:


Stack height:



BTW4, from the late 60s until the end of the US bike boom in mid 1974, European bicycle component manufacturers were hard pressed to provide products to meet the market demands. That's when the Japanese component makers broke into the European market.

I've seen at least 4 different styles of Simplex rear dropouts of Gitane TdFs from that era including the forged Ref 881-881B dropouts with out a gear hanger like the ones on this bike.

Bike makers used whatever they could get! "Spécifications être sujet au changement sans avis" (Specifications are subject to change without notice). :-( Raleigh used lots of Zeus dropouts on their top end bikes!






Neutered Simplex dropouts - surgery performed by an IDIOT!


Huret Dropouts:



Hope this info helps...

unworthy1

it sure does, thanks for the comprehensive work!

LeicaLad 

Chas,

You are always so generous with time and detail, not to mention pertinent photos. I join the many who say Thank You, for the scope and frequency of your contributions.

Now. May I take you to task, yet one more time, on BTW3?

"BTW3, Gitane used mostly Simplex or Huret fork ends. For whatever reason, a few bike boom era TdFs came with Campagnolo rear dropouts. That DOES NOT make the frame a Super Corsa! The difference was the headset spacing not the dropouts! TdF frames were made to take Stronglight P3 headsets with a 33mm stack height. Super Corsa frames used Campy headsets with ~41mm stack height."

Once, yet again, I am here to disagree with that pronouncement. I will try to do so gently, however, as I think of you as forum friend with whom I share so many interests.

I'm sorry, the stack height is defined by the length of the steerer tube, which means the last cut of fork tubing by frame size. The dropouts were/are a much more important definition of a frame that what fork got stuck on along the production line. More to the point, if we routinely say that the bike boom chaos saw fast & sloppy work and whatever mix of components was on hand, how is it possible that - at this same time - the exact length of the steerer tube for each frame was always precise to thus determine pedigree of the frame?

I have a TdF that was purchased new and came with a Stronglight HS but now happily sports a Campagnolo NR. The fork steerer tube IS long enough. So, my ’71 TdF with Simplex dropouts has an NR headset. It is not a Super Corsa. My '71 SC, on the other hand, came with Campy dropouts.

At the very most, it is possible to say that TdF FORKS, for each frame size, had the steerer tubes cut for the 33mm stack height. Thus, might it be that my TdF got one of the longer SC fork by mistake? Installed with a P3 headset, to boot? Were forks produced to a higher standard of exactitude than, say, the frames? I think it fair to say, probably not.

I am pretty much willing to say that if it came with Campy dropouts AND a NR headset, then the frame is by definition an SC. But I've never seen a period Gitane frame with Campy dropouts that came from the factory with a Stronglight HS. (Yet possible, tho. . .)

Sometimes, an SC bike would be put together by the local US dealer with lower-grade components to make a sale. I never heard of any dealership doing much upgrading to a TdF frame to pass it off as an SC. Mostly, the customers bought what they could afford, and then up-graded as and when they could.

All that is just about the BTW #3: Defining a Gitane by Stack Height


As usual, Chas, so many other details, tubing matters, etc., as interesting and helpful. Thank you, again.

Back to the frame: I think we've all agreed that it looks to be a very pleasant rider and we await the full posting of photos when the OP has put it on the road.

Cheers!

rootboy 

So, LeiceLad, are you saying a TdF fork steerer that came fitted with a Stronglight P3 can be fitted with a Nuovo Record headset?
Not questioning your assertion so much as very curious ... But don't exactly want to tear down my Gitane to experiment.