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Try Your Hand At Black Math!

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Try Your Hand At Black Math!

Old 04-11-13, 11:52 AM
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Try Your Hand At Black Math!

Here's what I'm working with.
  • 120mm spaced frame
  • Stronglight 49d crank arms with single 48t 3/32" ring
  • Fixed/fixed hub with 1/8" cogs
  • 68mm English BB shell
  • 1/8" chain

I'm going to buy a JIS taper, symmetrical cartridge BB. Now, class, what length spindle would you choose?
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Old 04-11-13, 12:33 PM
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118mm? I'd probably go narrower, if possible. I recently pulled a 103mm off the front of the Bilenky, but it uses a Specialized chainset.
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Old 04-11-13, 12:45 PM
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113mm Sutherlands 2nd edition
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Old 04-11-13, 12:47 PM
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Keep an old cup & cone BB around so you can mock up the crankset and get a value for X. Failing that, start long and then you can space the chain-ring in to pretty much whatever you want.
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Old 04-11-13, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
Failing that, start long and then you can space the chain-ring in to pretty much whatever you want.
I don't follow.

113mm sounds like the ticket. Thanks!
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Old 04-11-13, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
Here's what I'm working with.
  • 120mm spaced frame Not much of an issue
  • Stronglight 49d crank arms with single 48t 3/32" ring need to know how deep they'll slide onto JIS
  • Fixed/fixed hub with 1/8" cogs Not much of an issue
  • 68mm English BB shell Not much of an issue
  • 1/8" chain not much of an issue.
I'm going to buy a JIS taper, symmetrical cartridge BB. Now, class, what length spindle would you choose?
I'd get any old JIS taper BB to guage it. Mount the R side cup and bearings, slide the spindle through, install the crankarm.
Look at your clearance to the chain stay for the single chain ring. That's about your only worry.

If it's close, use it.

If it's too long, guage the extra length, double it.
Ex: 4mm too long on the R means your spindle is 8mm too long.
Adjust for asymmetry.

If it's too short, guage the extra needed, double it.
Ex: if you need 4mm more length, you need 8mm more spindle.
Adjust for asymmetry.

Eyeballing works as well as anything, if you're sober.
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Old 04-11-13, 01:13 PM
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My guess is the 113 will be too long.
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Old 04-11-13, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Look at your clearance to the chain stay for the single chain ring. That's about your only worry.
I suspect the crank arm will hit the BB shell before the ring will hit the chain stay. I'm trying to figure out spindle length for the best chain line. I don't have a spare cartridge BB to dry fit.

Originally Posted by rhm View Post
My guess is the 113 will be too long.
Could be. I am using a model 93 with a single ring in the outside position on a French frame (68mm shell) with a 107mm JIS BB (symmetrical) and the inner chain ring tabs are super close to hitting the chain stay. That's not an issue with the 49d, though. Sutherland's just lists "Stronglight" cranks so I guess they're suggesting that all Stronglight cranks fit the same distance between outer ring and BB shell for a given spindle.

So, you'd go with what spindle? 110mm? I'm afraid that with a 107mm I might be getting close to bottoming out the arm on the BB shell.
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Old 04-11-13, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
So, you'd go with what spindle? 110mm? I'm afraid that with a 107mm I might be getting close to bottoming out the arm on the BB shell.
Heck if I know. Thinking about it now, I have seen Stronglight cranks sit far inboard of other cranks, so maybe you'll be fine. I do know the last three BB's I've bought were longer than desired. No doubt this was my fault.
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Old 04-11-13, 01:58 PM
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I'd try what I had on hand and see if it needs to be shorter or longer than that. Then you'll know about what you need.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post

Eyeballing works as well as anything, if you're sober.
Love this comment
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Old 04-11-13, 02:01 PM
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I don't have any 1.37" x 24tpi cups on hand, hence all the figurin'.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:03 PM
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Yes, Robbie, but dealing with propietary french frivolities is much more bearable with some vin, biere ou cognac!
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Old 04-11-13, 02:11 PM
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I agree the 113 is likely too long. I'm using a 114mm JIS taper with a #93 double and have about 12mm clearance between the 53 ring and the stay.

110 seems about right if you're worried about the 107 being too close. Alternatively you could get the 107 and add spacers if necessary.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by due ruote View Post
Alternatively you could get the 107 and add spacers if necessary.
True, but spacers increase the likelihood of the NDS arm bottoming out on the BB shell. I guess I'll roll the dice with a 110mm spindle.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:23 PM
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I think you need to know the position of the cleanest chainline on the original set up and measure the distance from a fixed centerline on the frame and do the same with the fixed, mocked up, and then subtract the difference and multiply by two



.....ahhhh Hell, it's still a guess at best.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:29 PM
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get a phil BB = adjustable.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:35 PM
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Isn't the Shimano 110mm BB asymmetrical in some way?
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Old 04-11-13, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by norskagent View Post
get a phil BB = adjustable.
Yeah, that'd do it. Pricey, though. How much adjustability do they have?

Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Isn't the Shimano 110mm BB asymmetrical in some way?
I'm not sure. I was going to go with a VO, which I think are symmetrical.
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Old 04-11-13, 02:48 PM
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Here's what I was thinking of... DS length is the same as the "107": https://web.archive.org/web/201010220...ttom-brackets/

(For Shimano, at least.)
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Old 04-11-13, 03:25 PM
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I'd roll the dice with a 108mm spindle and have a couple of 1mm spacers on hand.
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Old 04-11-13, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
I don't have any 1.37" x 24tpi cups on hand, hence all the figurin'.
I've got a bunch. I can send you some if you want.
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Old 04-11-13, 04:02 PM
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Nah, thanks. I'm a risk taker.
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Old 04-11-13, 04:07 PM
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I think the phil BB has 5mm of adjustability. But I wouldn't want all 5 sticking out on side or the other!
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Old 04-11-13, 04:42 PM
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The last SS conversion I did was from a double chainring late 70's Raleigh. The distance of the stock outer ring was 5+mm off the stay, to get a clean chainline, running 1/8" chain, the new ring ended up being 3+mm off the stay. So maybe it needs to be 4 or so mm shorter than it originally was, or so I thought! But, I was wrong!!!!


The resolution was to go to my LBS with his favorite brew ( chilled, 15 minutes before closing time), told him what I was trying to do. He then grabbed a box of spindles and cups and began searching for a good line, once he found it, measured the spindle and order the BB for me. In the end, I paid for the BB and the install, We drank some excellent Belgium Triples and I got a clean chainline without the use of spacers...which somehow makes me feel good about the decision.
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