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Building A More Sturdier Wheelset

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Building A More Sturdier Wheelset

Old 04-28-13, 07:49 PM
  #1  
jamesj
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Building A More Sturdier Wheelset

I have a 1980 Trek 412, pictured here.



I've having trouble with the rear wheel. The rear wheel currently has a 6 Speed Suntour Perfect Freewheel , Gyromaster Hub laced to a 27" Sun Mistral Rim. It originally had a Rigida Rim but that rim was bent when I bought the bike so my mechanic replaced it with the Sun rim.

I use this bike as my everyday rider so the rear wheel is always going out of true and I'm constantly having to take it in. It doesnt help that I'm a stout fellow weighing in at about 280. I am was thinking about just upgrading the wheelset to 700c so I can put fenders on and more options when it comes to tires. I know the brake issue is always a problem which Im willing to also upgrade.

I have been reading about the Mavic A719 Rims being a bomb proof rim.

What do you all recommend?
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Old 04-28-13, 07:57 PM
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How about spreading the rear to 130mm, building a 7-speed cassette wheel, then putting the extra 4mm of spacers on the NDS for a more symmetrical (and stronger) wheel?
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Old 04-28-13, 08:06 PM
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Yes the A719 or the DT swiss TK540 are about the same. I use 36 hole 540s on my touring bike (formerly TK 7.1) and they are amazing. I build them with DT Swiss Alpine III spokes also and they are bomb proof except I hit a curb in the dark at 50kms and dented both. i road away with tubes intact, but a lump in the braking surface and out of round wheels. The rear could have went on for 1000s of more miles but I like my stuff to be perfect so I replaced both with same new rims. I recommend using 36 spoke 3x pattern. I would choose a different wheel builder this time as well. You shouldn't need constant truing if the wheel was well built and spoke tensions were equalized I know this from experience. Lots of mechanics think they know what they are doing, but wheel building does take some care and attention and a spoke tension meter unless you have decades of experience building wheels every week. I have seen wheels come back that my co-worker with over 30 years of experience built needing to be trued after 2 weeks. Why? He doesn't build wheels often enough anymore and he didn't use a tension meter to equalize paired spoke tension.
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Old 04-28-13, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
How about spreading the rear to 130mm, building a 7-speed cassette wheel, then putting the extra 4mm of spacers on the NDS for a more symmetrical (and stronger) wheel?
+1, this is the way to go.
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Old 04-28-13, 08:10 PM
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I have been reading about the Mavic A719 Rims being a bomb proof rim.
I don't know about the 719 except that it is supposed to be strong. We've got A319s tandem and they carry us nicely.

If the wheel is going out of true, it could be that it wasn't tensioned properly.
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Old 04-28-13, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
....

If the wheel is going out of true, it could be that it wasn't tensioned properly.
^ I suspect that is true, but a big guy on a little bike like that might benefit from some Sun CR18 rims and 1-1/4" or 32mm tires.
Those Mistrals you're running are what came with my 'dale, and they're pretty dern skinny.
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Old 04-28-13, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
^ I suspect that is true, but a big guy on a little bike like that might benefit from some Sun CR18 rims and 1-1/4" or 32mm tires.
Those Mistrals you're running are what came with my 'dale, and they're pretty dern skinny.
Peter White uses CR-18's as one of his rim choices for tandems.
Not the straightest rim, but a good buy for the money.
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Old 04-28-13, 08:48 PM
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Greetings fellow Arizonan! I also had issues with my rear wheel not staying true. Last year I had a new wheelset built using 700c Velocity Dyad rims and Phil Wood Touring hubs. 40 spokes on the the rear, 36 spokes up front. These replaced the original 27" wheels on my 1982 Nishiki. I run 32c Panaracer Pasela TG tires on this setup.

This wheelset was designed for loaded touring and is absolutely bomber! I have been extremely pleased with this wheelset and would recommend it for touring bikes, tandems and heavy riders on difficult terrain.

I also considered the Mavic A719 but they are heavy compared to the Dyads, and the A719's were only available at the time in black (I wanted silver rims).

1982 Nishiki Cresta

Last edited by Saguaro; 04-28-13 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 04-28-13, 10:34 PM
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Thank you everyone for your input. Im thinking it might be worth it just to spread the frame a bit and put in new hubs, what kind of hubs are out there?

@saguaro hello nice to meet you! thanx for the input, that Cresta is nice. I really don't want black rims either so those could also be a a option.

Last edited by jamesj; 04-28-13 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 04-28-13, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesj View Post
Thank you everyone for your input. Im thinking it might be worth it just to spread the frame a bit and put in new hubs, what kind of hubs are out there?

@saguaro hello nice to meet you! thanx for the input, that Cresta is nice. I really don't want black rims either so those could also be a a option.
Don't worry about your hubs, find someone who knows how to build good wheels. Like Jim above, I think your existing wheel wasn't built correctly, which is now causing you problems. Find a shop that deals in tandems- they'll know how to build you a good, durable wheel.
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Old 04-28-13, 11:06 PM
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I was thinking that using the same hubs with different rims would be best. I was just not sure if that was a option.

The guy who I usually get my wheels done from he said it was giving him alot of trouble to true up, now that I think of it...
Maybe it was done mad the first time.
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Old 04-29-13, 05:49 PM
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The thing is, I think the whole market is tilted towards wheels that are as light as possible and hence, margin of strength is not what it could be. And the focus of this issue is naturally the rear wheel, because it carries more load, yet is weaker due to being dished. The ways to alleviate this relative weakness, relative to the front wheel, not to mention the rest of the bike are:
-stiffer rim
-less dish
-wider hub
-more spoke tension, while staying within the respective limitations of the rim, the spokes, and the hub

BTW, by more spoke tension, you should understand, more cumulative spoke tension. In other words, more tension on a given number of spokes, or, the same tension on an increased number of spokes.

There aren't too many practical ways to reduce dish or widen the hub (i.e. with a wider replacement); but they might be worth pursuing if you're after every advantage.

Of course it is assumed that the wheel is built properly with appropriate & even spoke tension. Failing that, strength is naturally compromised.

To sum up, the one part of the typical road bike I wouldn't hesitate to add a few ounces to (and spend a few bucks) in order to gain some strength, is the rear wheel.
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Old 04-29-13, 05:52 PM
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29'r MTB wheel....spread the rear as needed.

If your not into that follow Scott's advice in post #2.

Lots of ways to skin this cat....
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Old 04-29-13, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesj View Post
what kind of hubs are out there?.
Any of the Shimano Deore series will work. A dirty secret (maybe not dirty) to getting quality wheels on the cheap is to buy something off the rack/shelf that was possibly machine built and then detension it and re-tension by hand.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sta-Tru-STW-...item20d2361c47
http://www.ebay.com/itm/700C-REAR-HY...item4d0aff96bc


I'm sure if you dig around the 'net you'll find more.
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Old 04-29-13, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
If the wheel is going out of true, it could be that it wasn't tensioned properly.
That'd be my guess. Might try loosening all spokes and bringing back to true and tension. Happens to wheels that have been messed with a lot I find. I rode basic wheels for years @ 300 to 340 lbs with no troubles. Are you avoiding potholes, ruts and curbs?

Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Peter White uses CR-18's as one of his rim choices for tandems.
Not the straightest rim, but a good buy for the money.
In my experience they build up really nicely.

Last edited by dbakl; 04-29-13 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 04-29-13, 06:23 PM
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I've been looking around for some solid wheels as well. My commuter/cross bike has a 7 spd cassette and a 130 mm spacing. That makes for a strong wheel. I've been riding that wheel on and off since the early 90s since it came off an RB-1.

Still it's time for a new wheel and I'm thinking a 36 hole dyad is a good choice. Universal Cycles has a good selection of wheels and the prices seem reasonable, http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...5&category=245.
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Old 04-29-13, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
.......In my experience they build up really nicely.
In my experience of building 4 CR-18's over the Winter, 3 had a noticeable flat spot at the rim joint. Not bad, but noticeable. A couple had the brake track bead 'tweaked" slightly. I'd still consider them good for the $, but would like to see them a bit straighter.
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Old 05-01-13, 09:49 PM
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Thank you everyone for the help, I really do appreciate everyones suggestions. I'm thinking of upgrading the rims to dyad instead of the Mavic A719's I really do not want black rims, I know it's only cosmetic. I was thinking I might ask my main wheel guy to see if it is worth it to use the hubs I have, If not I will upgrade the hubs also to 7 speed.

I would love to upgrade the whole drivetrain but for now I think it will make a world of difference just to upgrade the wheels.
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Old 05-01-13, 10:14 PM
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More spokes, man!
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Old 05-02-13, 06:47 AM
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Get these CR-18s. Keep it 27" and dont worry about cold setting the rear. Plus they are polished

http://www.velomine.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=739

I put a pair on my 82 Trek 613 and they are great and very reasonably priced
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Old 05-02-13, 06:50 AM
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drrobwave has some 40-sp wheels he got for touring, maybe he wants them gone.
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Old 05-02-13, 07:06 AM
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Maybe a Velocity Synergy asymmetrical rim? Not cheap, but it should solve the dish problem. Do they come in 27"?

And yeah, the cushiest tires you can fit...
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Old 05-02-13, 07:42 AM
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Velocity Dyads are just as strong as Mavic A719s yet less expensive and considerably lighter. Dyads are a fine choice for tandems and touring bikes, so should be able to handle your weight with ease. Also consider 36 spokes.
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Old 05-02-13, 09:20 AM
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In the interim, it is very easy to do a good job of truing a wheel without taking it off the bike, and it might only take a few minutes once you learn. You can quickly teach yourself using info on the web - out of round and side-to-side wobble are taken care of by just tightening and loosening spokes.

Like some have suggested, a new 27" wheel with a 7sp cassette hub, and 36 spokes in a 4x pattern might make it bomb-proof, and you won't have to swap the brakes.
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Old 05-02-13, 09:59 AM
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Yah, I dunno about 4x lacing on a 36-spoke wheel. Depending on the hub, the heads of one spoke may interfere with the next. Plus there's absolutely no advantage to having the spoke exit the hub at an angle greater than tangential. Stick with 3x lacing.

But a 7-speed cassette hub, if you can find one, is a good idea. If not, cold-set the frame to 135 and use a MTB hub. 7-speed cassettes will fit on 8-9-10 hubs with a 4.5 mm spacer.

I had the opportunity to go to 700c on a bike when I replaced the back rim and decided to cheap out and stay 27" so I didn't need to buy another rim and spokes. The brakes had the extra 4 mm of adjustment range so I could have used the same brakes. I regretted it ever since- not because there was anything wrong with 27", but that I really wanted 700c emotionally. I ended up giving the bike to the local coop because it reminded me every time I looked at it of not spending the extra $50 to do the front rim as well.
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