f33dback

Hi guys,

This is my first post on this forum. I think I may have picked up a bargain. I need help identifying this bike and possibly its value.

Summary: Bought a used bike to get around. Bike is too small. Think it might be worth something.

Background: I'm currently visiting my girlfriend in Europe. Yesterday I made an impulse buy on a used road bike for around 60 USD from a guy needing to clear out his garage. My reasoning was hey - why not - I can use one of those. I had initially purchased the bike with the intent of fixing it up and thereby having an alternative means of transportation. Turns out the bike is too small - I'm 5'9 and the frame measures approximately 50cm. I thought I could remedy this by raising the seat post and the handlebars, but that's a no-go. My second option was to attempt to harvest the parts off the bike and to fit them to another, even cheaper option - a used frame. I recognized the components' brands on the bike, so I did some Googling and it turns out this bike has some valuable vintage parts (i.e. the Campagnolo Delta brakes).

It appears a lot of the parts on this bike were coveted and mid-level parts in the 80s. The only thing I cannot identify for the life of me is the manufacturer of the frame. I believe it's Italian, as most of the components are Italian, with 2 notable exceptions: the Shimano gear system (front & rear), the Look clip pedals, and the Hatta Swan headset. A wild guess, but I don't think someone would invest in mid- to high-end components on a cheap bike.

When I initially checked out the bike the guy told me the tires and brakes were expensive when he bought them. "Yeah, whatever" I thought - I was planning on paying his asking price anyhow. Cheap mountain bikes in Europe start at around 150 USD. I'll get my money's worth by not paying the exorbitant parking fees for a week. DONE.

Some Googling and eBay research lead me to the conclusion that none of the parts on this bike are cheap. In all fairness I suppose it's a mix of low-, mid-, and high-end components.

The parts

Headset: Hatta Swan (made in Japan) - new asking price $99.
Handlebar: Cinelli Crimerium (retails mint for $75 - so let's drop that to $20)
Stem - unknown but I'm guessing an easy $10
Seat: Selle SMP (made in Italy) retails new for ~$30 -
Seat post: Gipiemme (the nuts have the company's name on them, so not an ebay 99-cent special)
Crankset: don't know - don't have tools to remove yet
Rear dérailleur: Shimano 105 (retails new for ~$20-$50)
Cassette: Shimano
Rear wheel/rim: Rigida DP 18 (France) - ~50 new
Front wheel/rim: Mavic Open 4 CD
tires (front and rear): Michelin (rear one looks expensive)
Brakes (f+r) : Campagnolo Delta (these seem to fetch anywhere from $200 and up).

So far, I have not been able to find any branded logos on the frame. It looks like the frame may have been repainted or touched up at some point, as I found paint on the rear springs that the the wheel hooks into. Also, there seems to be a re-occurring of an inverted triangle, where one side of the triangle is slightly curved. Initially I thought it was this other Italian brand, but their triangles resemble tiny hearts, so that's a no-go.

On to the pics. These are the ones that best illustrate the re-occuring triangle theme and/or possibly unique identifiers not found on other similar bikes. The rest can be found here: https://postimg.org/gallery/5gf6099m/70fe9b33/






















I've spent nearly two full days looking up images on Google. No dice. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for looking.

cyclotoine

the frame has a dutch look to it... that is all I can offer.

f33dback

Thanks. What's indicative of it possibly being Dutch vs the alternatives? Don't manufacturers normally mark their frames? Could there be any "hidden" markings inside any of the tubes?

mainstreetexile 

Not sure on the frame, but that's a great score for the brakes alone.

Those head tube lugs look pretty unique and they may be a pretty good key to identifying the builder:



Also, if you're riding it that way, you should probably lower the stem a bit since I can see it's above the max height line. Otherwise you could damage the frame.

f33dback

Yeah, I caught that today after wiping down the stem. That line was obfuscated by grease. I tried to play around with the saddle and stem height, but it really seems like the frame is too small for me. As bike theft is rampant in Europe, I'm not riding this anywhere until I've assessed what it is I'm riding. It seems like this isn't the type of beater fit for the dollar-store lock I was planning on securing it with.

What's your estimate on the brakes? Opinions seem mixed.

I'm going to list the parts on Bikeradar and try to raise some extra $ for WW project.

cyclotoine

The large lug windows and the crown style, just remind me of gazelles and it was pretty common to find highly mixed component groups on Dutch bikes. So it's just conjecture really.

The threading of the headset and bottom bracket will be the first step in narrowing down the country of origin. Check out https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bottombrackets.html for a run down of threading types.

Once you know the country you can narrow your focus to searching for other examples of brands from the country that could match your bike.

f33dback

Thanks. I'll try to remove the bracket and see where I get. The pedals appear stuck, so I'm going to read up on that and see what the best solution is to loosen those bolts without stripping them.

rhm

Drive side photo, please? I'm sure someone can identify the crank. From the look of the left side arm, it's something unusual.

Campy Delta brakes are worth something, but the rest of your components do not sound like anything special. That is, good enough but not valuable. The stem might be a 3ttt.

Chombi

The components are so mixed and all over the place in terms of origin and model level that it is most likely a "Frankenbike" build by a previous owner using parts/components on hand and not a factory job.
One big clue that could give away its identity is the very interesting/attractive IMO, geometric style of the lugs. I dunno wht tit is, but someone here might recognize those lugs....

Chombi

jeirvine 

Looks like a re-paint and rebuild, thus the mishmash of parts.

gaucho777 

Nice bike, and certainly a score for the Delta brakes alone. Definitely has all the tell-tale signs of repaint and parts-bin rebuild.

Those appear to be Bocama Competition 78 lugs. See here:
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Fra...a/bocama_3.htm

One method of determining if it is Italian is to measure the BB. Italian BBs are slightly wider (70cm, versus 68cm), and also slightly larger (English/ISO cups will drop into the BB shell without engaging the threads). From there, the threading cribsheet cyclotoine provided should help pin it down.

Do you see any name on the dropouts (where the wheels attach)? Photos of the dropouts with the wheel removed might be helpful in identifying the frame, too.

The combination of over-BB cable routing, along with top-tube cable guides suggests early 80s to me.

P.s. The bike appears to have gold anodized crank bolts. Those were a weight weenie mod. I purchased a project bike with those same crank bolts and one snapped when I tried to remove it. The bolt needed to be machined out of the BB axle. You may consider switching to standard steel crank bolts. Let it soak in some penetrating solvent such as PB Blaster if it puts up any resistance. IMO, those may be too flimsy and prone to future problems for the amount of weight savings they offer.

f33dback

Nice one Gaucho. Looks like you hit the nail on the head. How did you figure that one out? Looks like a match.

No name on the dropouts. I examined almost every exposed part of the frame. The only portion I have not checked out is the part housing those pedals and cranks. Here are those extra pictures. Hope I took the right ones. Thanks again y'all.

f33dback

@Gaucho777 This bike on ebay is the only one I've seen so far that has the same, unique, cable holders on the bottom part of the bike as the one I purchased.

gaucho777 

A good memory, plus I spend an inordinate amount of time looking at pictures of old bikes.

SJX426 

the cable guides are very common on many of the era. Nothing really unique about the guides, just that they are there and help to determine the approximate date. It is like a milestone. My 83 Colnago has the cables rounted under the BB. The late 70's Super have the same guides as yours. My 72 Motobecane Le Champion had Campagnolo guides that bolted onto the down tube. So there is a trend in frame building that went from bolt on parts to braze on parts to a wide variation of routing configurations including in the tube to electric to maybe wirless controls!

gaucho777 

I take back what I said about the gold anodized crank bolt. It was rust. Those appear to be standard steel crank bolts.

I don't recognize those cranks, but they appear to be "swaged" cranks. Is there any type stamped on the back of the arms which might point to the maker?

f33dback

negative. The only indicative component I found was the seat post bolt, which has "Gipiemme" engraved onto the head.



Seems like many/several manufacturers used Gipiemme to manufacture their seatposts or somehow contribute to the overall manufacturing process of the bike.

The shifters are made by Ofmega, but I recall looking this up last night as well without any conclusive results.

It seems like the components on this bike aren't bad.Is there any reason why I shouldn't pick up a cheap bike frame and slap these roadbike components on there, provided the dimensions are similar? I spent 4 hours last night looking this up and the majority of those advocating against this practice do so because the parts costs more than the bike. I already have most of the parts, so the only major expense I'm seeing is the frame.

I just hijacked my own thread.

unworthy1

+1, that angular lug treatment is very "Benelux", so is the Hatta Swan HS, for whatever reason they seem to always show up on Benelux brands.
Might be Batavus, might be Gazelle, maybe something more obscure....probably some flavor of Reynolds tubing.
The chainrings are Ofmega, maybe the crank too but pursuing the components is not going to help much...except to say that most are "mid-level" except for the Delta brakes.

f33dback

Would make sense, as the seller was originally from Belgium. I'll check those out! thanks!

Another point of interest is that the higher end (Italian) bikes often have 2 water bottle slots, + sometimes a third one for the pump. The one I have only has one bottle slot. However, I also noticed that the rear drop out on the higher end bikes have springs, which mine has, and as those springs had paint on them. I figured the paint job was done prior to outfitting new gear on it.

Bianchigirll 

The brakes are Croce de Anue and if the 'cap' that holds the cover in place isn't cracked they may bring a few shillings on the 'bay.



The crank looks like a lowerend Ofmega offering to me, atleast the markings on the chainwheels look like the Ofmega 'lazy S'

ericbaker

The chainring bolts also seem to be stamped ofmega

There is no serial number on the bottom of the bb shell? Could just be filled in with paint?

And you should post a pic of the dropouts without the wheel in

unworthy1

That's not so much an indication of quality, but more of age; your bike has the over-top-BB-cable guides that came into fashion in the '70s and went out of fashion in the '80s (very broadly speaking). Water bottle bosses were introduced around the same time period and it became more typical to have double bottles in the '80s, as well as other braze-ons like a pump peg, chain hanger on the chainstay and a front derailleur tab...again, these are generalities. Plenty of earlier ('60s) frames also used pump pegs, but these were a different style to the simple "bump" behind the head tube.
Your frame has details that would place it sometime in the mid-to-late '70s, but could even go into the early '80s.
Sounds like the adjuster screws were not removed from the drop-outs prior to repainting...kind of slipshod work.

f33dback

Thanks for the updates everyone. I've been attempting to check out local bikes, but no luck. Sounds like the paint job was not exactly a pro job. I'm shopping around for bike tools, in order to remove the bracket. Is the proverbial adage you-get-what-you-pay-for applicable to bike tools? I'll post some more pictures tomorrow. I listed the Croce d'Aune brakes + calipers + hoods for around 140 USD and have some eagerly interested buyers.

Camilo

I just scanned the thread - but did you flip the bike over and look at the bottom of the bottom bracket. Didn't see any pictures of that either. Often see a serial number, a manufacturer's name or distinctive drainage cutouts down there.

f33dback

Quick update. Sorry for the delays everyone and thank you for all the input. Last week I decided to sand down parts of the frame. It wasn't pretty. I didn't have any paint stripper lying around here (cheapest I found was priced at nearly 20-USD - not happening) so I made-do with some household items, namely nail polish remover, abrasive oven cleaners, and some sand paper and got to work. Several hours later I couldn't find anything - I tried the bottom bracket housing and found no hint of any serial numbers or other hints. However, upon closer inspection, I found GIPIEMME stamped into the front fork's dropouts - the same brand used on the seatpost bolt. Still inconclusive but better than nothing. More importantly - I found a buyer for some of the components and decided to purchase a new frame with that money and build my own bike - I needed a new project anyway.

I'm going to start a new thread. I've done a ton of research on the matter but I could still use some input on the best course of action (i.e. can I use the old fork from my 53cm frame on the larger 700c hybrid frame?).