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Whats up with my confusing Paramount?

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Whats up with my confusing Paramount?

Old 05-04-13, 09:03 AM
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ericbaker
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Whats up with my confusing Paramount?

I picked up this paramount frame at the last swap with intentions of painting it, It has a giant spot of missing chrome on the Top Tube and was also messed up when someone added the braze-on cable carriers on the BB. But the lugs and legs are great so a repaint seemed the perfect soluton. Serial number is "D73___" making it a 1973. The rack eyelets and fork rake are obviously touring equipment.

Here is where i get confused. While looking up original color options i noticed that full chrome was not available in '73, or in '74 if this ended up as a '74 model. Whas this an upgrade option? Was it chromed later in its life?

Furthermore, I've yet to see another example with the downtube cable stops brazed on, these do not seem aftermarket like the BB guides, as there is no evidence of the heat from the brazing torch and the chrome covers up the brass. I can't find mention of these being an option, nor can i find a pic of another paramount with them. Was this a factory option? Did it come standard with some variation of the P15 (like the Twin Shift stem shifters)?

There is nothing about the frame that would lead me to believe its not a Paramount.

So do I have a custom factory frame with some after market cable guides, a full aftermarket custom, or some unusual features on a factory frame?

Wheres the P-mount experts!?










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Old 05-04-13, 09:03 AM
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Old 05-04-13, 12:08 PM
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I think there are a couple of possibilities here. One is that a high profile Schwinn dealer (one that sold lots of Schwinns) had a customer who insisted on a chrome plated Paramount, and the factory chrome plated it as a custom finish for a premium price. The other is that the bike was originally painted at the factory, then stripped, polished, and chrome plated by the customer. A couple of years ago, someone on the Waterford forums had a '73 P15 that had been painted, and he had it professionally chrome plated.

The best way to tell for sure is to order a provenance report from Waterford for $50. I did that for my '72 chrome P15, and was pleased to discover that the story the seller had told me about buying it new as a teenager while working in his dad's Schwinn dealership in Tarzana was true.

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Old 05-04-13, 12:32 PM
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The top tube cable guides were standard on the P10 and P15, but the water bottle bosses weren't an option at all in the early seventies; they would have been added later.

If the water bottle bosses are brazed to the frame, it would lend credence to the theory that the bike was originally painted, then probably chrome plated after the bosses were brazed to the down tube.

Also, Schwinn did an excellent job chrome plating the Paramounts. The issues with the plating on this frame would lead me to believe it wasn't factory.
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Old 05-04-13, 12:53 PM
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FWIW, I have a original 1974 P-13 that is chrome. Some must have been produced.

Haven't ordered the report on this one tho....yet I also have a Painted P-13 with factory Bottle brazed on bosses, also FWIW

I would agree the factory chrome on the full chrome bikes is excellent, maybe a bit better than those with only chrome lugs and socks.
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Old 05-04-13, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 2112YYZ View Post
yet I also have a Painted P-13 with factory Bottle brazed on bosses, also FWIW
The first time Schwinn advertised water bottle braze-ons as an extra cost option on P13s was 1978. They may have done it on special request at the factory for a year or two before that, but the 1976 Paramount Order Form doesn't mention water bottle braze-ons as an option.

1978 P13-9 catalog page with specs:

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Old 05-04-13, 03:46 PM
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!st you chrome it then you paint it. If you are going to paint a part of it ,
you dont have to polish the bare steel in that portion of the frame..
before plating the whole thing.

a good chrome plating specialist can bring the whole thing back up to pristine.
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Old 05-04-13, 03:59 PM
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A good plater will deplate the frame to the bare metal before replating. It is a very labor intensive process to deplate, prepare the surface for replating, then replate with copper, then nickel, then chrome, and finally bake the plated frame immediately following the chrome plating to mitigate the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement.

The process is dirty and dangerous, and the resulting toxic waste must be disposed of in accordance with the laws.

In other words, replating properly and legally is very expensive.
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Old 05-04-13, 07:25 PM
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Scooper, Mine is a 78', The Chrome P-13 I spoke of is the 74'.

The proverbial Garage door pose.

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Old 05-04-13, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 2112YYZ View Post
Scooper, Mine is a 78', The Chrome P-13 I spoke of is the 74'.
That's gorgeous!

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Old 05-05-13, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
The top tube cable guides were standard on the P10 and P15.

If the water bottle bosses are brazed to the frame, it would lend credence to the theory that the bike was originally painted, then probably chrome plated after the bosses were brazed to the down tube.

Also, Schwinn did an excellent job chrome plating the Paramounts. The issues with the plating on this frame would lead me to believe it wasn't factory.
I like this evaluation, the previous owner seemed to like adding things to the bike, the bb guides are the perfect example, It never seems probable that someone would have a bike chromed aftermarket because of the expense, but with all the added doodads it seems most likely at this point.

What about the cable stops on the downtube, was this ever an option?

Thanks for the input all!
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Old 05-05-13, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ericbaker View Post
I like this evaluation, the previous owner seemed to like adding things to the bike, the bb guides are the perfect example, It never seems probable that someone would have a bike chromed aftermarket because of the expense, but with all the added doodads it seems most likely at this point.

What about the cable stops on the downtube, was this ever an option?

Thanks for the input all!

I have not seen them on a factory chrome Schwinn. From a plater's view any braze ons are trouble. Difficult to get decent plating coverage and much harder to buff safely. The add ons catch the buffing wheel.

Way back guys did from time to time around here got their bikes chrome plated, a fellow club member had it done, $170. in 1973. That was a flawless job, but not cheap and done by a very reputable plater in the LA area, Highland Plating. Where Art Stump had his bikes "Black Chrome" plated too.
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Old 05-05-13, 08:16 AM
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I've got a few black anodized campy parts and 26" handrolled Mavic mtb wheelset I suspect we're the handiwork of Art Stump. Are you familiar at all with his work? Always looking for more info on him to possibly confirm my suspicions.... This is my thread and I will derail it if I want to!
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Old 05-05-13, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
a fellow club member had it done, $170. in 1973. That was a flawless job
And today, maybe 15 times that amount for that level of job? More? Love to hear from someone who has done it recently.
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Old 05-05-13, 09:20 PM
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CycleArt will deplate a frameset for $35 (frame, $25; fork $10). Chrome plating a complete frameset is $800.
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Old 05-05-13, 09:45 PM
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Wow, Much better than I expected.
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Old 05-06-13, 07:03 AM
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My 1972 P15 has the same cable stops and has the cable stops identical to yours. My serial number is F72285. The paint matches the overspray on the forks steerer tube, so it confused me also because it does not seem like they were added later.

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Old 05-09-13, 08:43 AM
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Kobe, if yours is a '72, the decals at least would have been changed at one time, that block script didn't start until '76 or '77 I believe.

But this is the first I've seen of another with the downtube stops. Are they slotted or just tunnels?

Also has anybody ever seen a "twinn stick" equipped P15? I wonder if they have some connection to the DT cable stops as they both seem rather unheard of in Paramount land
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Old 05-09-13, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ericbaker View Post
I've got a few black anodized campy parts and 26" handrolled Mavic mtb wheelset I suspect we're the handiwork of Art Stump. Are you familiar at all with his work? Always looking for more info on him to possibly confirm my suspicions.... This is my thread and I will derail it if I want to!
Yes, I used to go by and visit Art's workshop in Santa Monica long long ago. First met him in early 1973 at the Malibu 10 mile time trial, the first event of the season locally back then.
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