Plimogz

When I received my new Brooks B17 Imperial a couple of days ago I was mildly disappointed to find that each of the joints where the rails meet up with the back of the saddle was quite dissimilar from the other. I find uniformity to be a trademark of good craftsmanship and given the structural importance of these two points I would have hoped that a bit more care would go into their soldering (at least, that looks like soldering). But I figured that it might well be alright, and that if ever this turned out to be a point of failure, I'd deal with that down the line. Fine, right?

But now I notice that the "registered cutting", the Imperial's distinctive center cut-out, is rather far off center. And far from being a cosmetic problem, this is resulting in uneven tension in each side. I've now only ridden it once, but already the side which has been cut into deeper by the asymmetry is sagging lower than the other, whereas the side which has more leather is noticeably firmer and higher. I must say that I'm finding this difficult to swallow from a luxury product which came packed with roughly 25 pages of junk promotional material containing a profusion of expressions like: "skilled craftsmen", "lifetime comfort", "time honored fashion", etc...

So, I wonder, I'm I overestimating the renowned Brooks quality by thinking that I should have received a saddle where the center cut-out runs right down the middle in order that both sides have quite similar amounts of remaining material and thus perform similarly? Or is this sort of thing pretty much par for the course and Brooks can't be bothered to cut out a hole in the top of their saddles with a tighter-than-3/32" tolerance for error? Or am I perhaps exaggerating the importance of this sort of disparity in the case of a Brooks leather saddle; which could, perhaps, even out this asymmetry by stretching in weird and fantastic ways over the course of the many miles to come?

I ask because while I'm thinking about returning it for an exchange, I'm worried that the claim could either be denied, or that the next Imperial I receive could just as likely as not have this sort of manufacturing imperfection/defect. In which case I'd consider getting the standard B17, which would presumably not have this problem of uneven tension across its width.

striknein

It depends on how long you've been riding it.

leather saddles are going to stretch and conform to your unique anatomy. Even if it started centered, the cut-out likely will end up lopsided at some point anyway. Even the best QA practices can't prevent every defective product from slipping through. If it bothers you that much, contact your dealer or brooks for a warranty replacement.

Plimogz

Do you figure that the odds would be on the side of the replacement having the center cut-out well centered? I mean, I know that Brooks should be good quality and everything. So am I just being slightly too fussy? or is this a pretty crappy example of their otherwise better QA'ed products?

It has to be said that so far my completely unrepresentative sample of ONE has been 100% disappointing.

But yeah, I've already shot off emails to Brooks and the dealer. I'm sure that they'll be most accommodating and will willingly grant me an exchange. My point was more to ask people who've maybe seen a few Brooks saddles, or even owned a B17 Imperial, whether my experience rang a bell or if I should just get on with the product exchange, confident that it's unusual for their saddles to have obvious issues like this and that in all likelihood the replacement will be better and devoid of such problems.

rhm

As someone who makes leather saddle tops by hand, I can assure you it is difficult to achieve perfect symmetry on these things. That's no excuse for my own failures, and I'm not defending Brooks here; it is just an observation. For what its worth, I have seen a lot of old saddles that were never symmetrical and it hasn't seemed to matter much in most cases, but sometimes it does.

I don't think it reasonable to expect a leather saddle to perfect. Leather is a natural product, every cow is different, and indeed every inch of a cow's hide is different. Someone at the factory had to choose how to cut the leather, and we can expect him to make some mistakes. That said, it sounds to me like quality control should have caught your saddle before it left the factory. One advantage of buying in a brick and mortar store is that you can inspect before you buy.

I think the real question will be, how does Brooks stand by their warranty. If your saddle is stretching unevenly, you may have an issue that they need to address. Can you take the saddle back to where you got it? That would be my first approach. If that is not an option, or if they don't fix the problem (by giving you a new saddle, I expect) then contact Brooks.

Do not, however, search the forums for threads on Brooks customer service, especially the ones started by sorefeet. That won't help at all .

Velognome 

3/32" of an inch.......Holy crap, on a good day, I'm not even sure my eye could pick up on that! How about posting a picture of the saddle so we can all see. The saddle should be quality, well made and symetrical but to what level of tolerance? Let's all have a peek.

dddd

A saddle could leave the factory dead-straight, but with break-in an uneven piece of leather might immediately begin shifting around and/or stretching unevenly.

I would think this cutout design might lead to a greatly increased tendency for any slight thickness variations in the leather to cause visible and/or dimensional asymmetry in the support surface, but that's just my intuition.

Chombi

Just return the thing for warranty exchange.....
No manufacturer makes 100% perfect products 100% of the time and some have better " batting averages" than others. In my case, Brooks did a great job on my Imperial.....

YoKev

sorefeet, is that you?

Plimogz

@Velognome: well, take that 3/32" with a grain of salt for the time being. The issue with mesuring it is properly finding the centerline. Pretty much everything on the saddle is a little askew: the brooks name plate on the back relative to the back rivets (but who cares, obviously), the front rivets relative to the nose bolt assembly (easy to see from straight-on, but presumably not a major concern), the length of the leather on either side relative to each other and the rails (which may be down to how one side is now drooping lower than the other, or may actually be the cause of everything if the cut-out is made before the leather is fitted to the rails and shaped, and the leather was put on lopsided which would account for the length difference and the hole being off-center...

I'm going to think about trying to take some pictures of all this... but I'm neither much of a shutter bug nor a much of a picture poster, so we'll see how it goes...

For the record, I would have readily gotten over the slight imperfections in the saddle -- marked it down to hand manufacturing using a natural material and gone for a ride. Except the quality of the ride is affected by the cut-out being off center and I'm worried about how this particular saddle will age, given that when I took it out of its box the leather top was nice and flat and only a single ride later, one side has already taken a permanently lower shape than the other.

@dddd: Yes, I was enthused with the Imperial's cutout design until I held it in my hands and began thinking about how the leather's structure would be affected by it upon stretching. At which point I started noticing the asymmetry and thinking about how the different widths of top leather would impact the amount of strength (and thus ensuing stretch) of both halves. I hadn't thought about how the weakened saddle top (due to the cutting) would only accentuate the influence of natural variance in the thickness of the leather... But I'm assuming that the thickness or grain of the leather, though likely to have an impact in the absolute, is going to be largely overshadowed by the large difference between the halves' width of leather on top. (at one point, near the flaring of the center cut-out, one side has 15mm of material whereas the other has 11mm, maybe 11.5... Anyway, I think I need to work out how to take proper pictures of this thing.

Plimogz

It's good to hear that. Hopefully I'll be able to get this saddle replaced with one which left the factory with proportions closer to the ideal.

and @YoKev, nope, not sorefeet. Though seeing as how rhm already warned me off searching for this sorefeet's threads, I must admit that my curiosity is getting piqued.

repechage

Of course, you are assuming your pelvis is symmetrical. My guess the center cutout is a secondary operation after the main blank is cut, and who knows how tight the placement locator tolerance is.
If it really bothers you, I would ask the merchant you purchased it from to exchange it. my guess Brooks will never see the saddle, it will be sold to another.
Disclaimer, I ride my saddles off to the left a bit, just how it has been for me for decade, humans only look symmetrical.

Sorefeet, indeed really really could not overcome is Brooks issue.

Velognome 

I wonder if anyone makes a corrective saddle.....orthodics but for the pelvis

Plimogz

well... if ever somebody has their perineum slightly off to the left with a shorter sit-bone on their right side, I have a rather special B17 Imperial here which will likely fit your ass like a glove...

jr59

I would have to agree with this. I have seen a saddle or 2 come from Brooks not Centered as well as it should have been. So it does happen.
Brooks has always stood behind it's stuff, so I think it will turn out ok. I hope so anyways.

As to sorefeet.....well thats a different story!

rootboy 

What shop did you purchase it from? They'll likely send you a new one. I purchased one back in the 90's which was asymmetrical.
One side more taught that the other. Eventually got rid of it as it was causing me problems riding it.

Plimogz

I bought it from Wiggle.UK. After reading their return/exchange policies I'm hopeful that I won't have to pay anything if the exchange goes well.

On a side note, I don't think that I'll be able to get any pictures out of my camera because I lack the proper micro-usb cable and my improvised SD card reader is acting up badly.

I do however have a nice selection of accurate measurement tools handy, so I'm just trying to figure out how to go about getting some good measurements to quantify all of this. (my planned evening ride has been rained out, so I've got a disturbing amount of free time on my hands atm)

Yo Spiff

I was about to buy a Brooks Flyer from my local LBS last year and happened to notice it was very lopsided when viewed from the front. Probably wouldn't have affected the ride, but it looked awkward. The shop sent it back to the regional distributor they got it from. Not sure if it eventually make its way back to Brooks or if it just got sent off somewhere else.

Paramount1973

Sounds like it was made on a Monday. Send it back.

repechage

I doubt it, but I will never be a customer for a bike with a integrated seat mast.

repechage

Or the fellow at the die cut clicker machine was thinking of Maggie Thatcher at the time.

sonatageek

Don't know about your saddle and if you should keep or exchange, but my experience with the B-17 Imperial has been very good. I have one from the 'test' that Brooks did where they offered them on BF for free to a few testers (not me) or at a discount for those who did get in earlier enough for the test (me).

I have over 10,000 miles on mine and it is still in great shape and not sagging.

Plimogz

I can't help wondering how much you've tightened it over the course of that 10K miles. ??

In any case, it's great to hear that the saddle is as good as the reviews make it out to be -- it's something to look forward to, assuming that I can get this sorted out. In other news, I have, upon further inspection and measurement, noticed that the nose bolt on mine isn't even straight relative to the rails... Which would mean that should I have to keep this one, every time I end up turning the bolt to stretch the leather in the future, I would be increasingly pushing the nose towards the left. (I didn't have to measure anything to tell that the bolt's tap is seriously crooked, I simply hadn't payed that much attention to the underside yet)

I can only hope that this saddle is indeed a sorry outlier, with the vast majority of B17 Imperials ending up in better shape at the end of the production line. Considering the positive reviews in general, and your experience in particular, I'm sure there are at least some some fine examples out there. And if the Brooks name is worth its reputation, I'd guess that I'm just one unlucky exception and that the majority of saddles don't look like they were slapped together by some hungover intern.

dddd

Looking over a few of my leather saddles, I notice quite a bit of asymmetry in the frames and leather, but I've never noticed anything about this while riding.
I have quite a few different brands, many made by Brooks supposedly, but also a Lepper with tubular rails and a few Ideals.

It seems like the really old ones might be straighter on average, and none have cutouts beyond a few small holes.

Road Fan

I'd have to agree, here. Mrs Road Fan has had an asymmetry develop in a B-17s Imperial, and she just used it. I bought a new 17 Imperial for me and she needed to try it. It's holding up a lot better, as is my older 17N imperial from the rider test a few years ago, but I lost my saddle to her!

I think you just got a bad one and should try to return it. I can't say, but maybe Brooks will do well for you if you give them a chance. It's guaranteed that if you don't, they won't. You've contacted them, so just wait and see what they say.

Savagewolf

I love the Imperial saddle. I got mine from the testing phase some years back too. If you decide you can't ride it, and can't get your money back, I'd be more than happy to put that saddle on one of my bikes.