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Steel is slower? For utility riding, maybe not.

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Steel is slower? For utility riding, maybe not.

Old 06-09-13, 08:41 PM
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Steel is slower? For utility riding, maybe not.

Stumbled on this article while researching frame weights.
https://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6801

Over a series of rides on the same route, a 9 lb difference in bike weight did not add up to a difference in trip time. Makes sense since the weight difference would be less than 10% for a rider plus bike assuming a total weight of 100 lbs or more.

Ride that vintage steel.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:50 PM
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Steel?

It's real.
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Old 06-09-13, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FatherAlabaster View Post
Steel?

It's real.
Aluminum? Imaginary.

Titanium? Speculation.

Carbon? Theoretical.

I'm holding out for a bike frame made from 100% pure phlogiston. And laminated in angel feathers. I hear they are laterally stiff and vertically hallowed.

Wood is good.
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Old 06-10-13, 04:52 AM
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Many riders could stand to lose some body mass... I am always entertained by the guys at the LBS weighing each component to try an shave grams off the bike, when the quickest weight loss would be POUNDS off the rider, probably cheaper too!

Aaron
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Old 06-10-13, 05:06 AM
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For utility riding, it's about pedal cadence and a comfortable speed, not a "max out" of speed or beating a certain time. All else being equal, your speed and cadence would be the same whether on steel or aluminum alloy.
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Old 06-10-13, 05:40 AM
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Paramount1973, Bicycle weight always makes for entertaining threads!

My touring bike is roughly 25% heavier than my lightest road bike. The greater percentage of the difference is in the wheelset and tires. If gearing were equal between them, it takes more effort to accelerate to cruising speed from a stop within the same time frame or distance, or takes longer in time and distance if using the same effort. It maybe easier to maintain cruising speed on the T bike due to the flywheel effect of the heavier rotating bits.

My son's SPX tubed Olmo is only going to be about 2-3 lbs. heavier than my Cannondale project distance bike. His frame is 4 cm larger with a steel fork. That's about a 1% difference when combined with his weight. The only measurable difference would be on a scale.

Brad
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Old 06-10-13, 05:45 AM
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AMEN! I weigh 208. Should weigh 190. The weight difference between my 22 lb (ancient) Tempo and the newest carbon offering pales in consideration of what I need to take off of me!

signed
keeping working (I'll get there)
pales
Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
Many riders could stand to lose some body mass... I am always entertained by the guys at the LBS weighing each component to try an shave grams off the bike, when the quickest weight loss would be POUNDS off the rider, probably cheaper too!

Aaron
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Old 06-10-13, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
Many riders could stand to lose some body mass... I am always entertained by the guys at the LBS weighing each component to try an shave grams off the bike, when the quickest weight loss would be POUNDS off the rider, probably cheaper too!

Aaron
Good point.

I have a friend that has returned to bicycling after many years of cheeseburgers, steaks and nachos by the pound.

He had been a fairly decent rider twenty years ago, but let himself go.

No exercise and a stressful career gave him major health issues.

Two years ago he had a heart attack. The good doctors gave him the word and he has been getting it together since then.

He is currently down 90 pounds due to a new lifestyle.

This obesity issue in our country is real and some of us face it every day.

I fight it myself, so maybe that's why I ride so often.

Btw He rides six days out of the week now and looks fantastic.
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Old 06-10-13, 06:56 AM
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In my experience, the biggest factor in performance is proper fit. Give a person a proper fitting bicycle and he will be more efficient, comfortable and faster. One of the big reasons that forum members prefer their steel frames is because they have taken the time to dial in their position or have adapted to it. Just pop onto some other frame, be it steel, aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber and you're almost certain to be less comfortable because it's not fitted to you. I believe that this is at the root of why so many cyclists develop allegiance to specific frame materials, brands, etc.

Unfortunately, most people do not understand bicycle fitting. Given a number of bicycles, most people are actually able to select the bicycle who's fit best suits them, but this is based on the chance set-up by the store technican. They don't understand why it is more comfortable and they don't realize that with a few simple adjustments, that the least comfortable bicycle can often be made just as comfortable. People are often amazed how I can "transform" their bicycle with a few minor tweaks of the saddle and handlebar position.
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Old 06-10-13, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Lascauxcaveman View Post
Aluminum? Imaginary.

Titanium? Speculation.

Carbon? Theoretical.

I'm holding out for a bike frame made from 100% pure phlogiston. And laminated in angel feathers. I hear they are laterally stiff and vertically hallowed.

Wood is good.
Sorry... I couldn't resist. I love my steel bike but that was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. And we've already had a discussion about some of your "experimental" materials in another thread, debating the merits of non-asploding unicorn tears as an epoxy binder.

Originally Posted by T-Mar
In my experience, the biggest factor in performance is proper fit. Give a person a proper fitting bicycle and he will be more efficient, comfortable and faster.
I completely agree with this!
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Old 06-10-13, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
In my experience, the biggest factor in performance is proper fit. Give a person a proper fitting bicycle and he will be more efficient, comfortable and faster. One of the big reasons that forum members prefer their steel frames is because they have taken the time to dial in their position or have adapted to it. Just pop onto some other frame, be it steel, aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber and you're almost certain to be less comfortable because it's not fitted to you. I believe that this is at the root of why so many cyclists develop allegiance to specific frame materials, brands, etc.

Unfortunately, most people do not understand bicycle fitting. Given a number of bicycles, most people are actually able to select the bicycle who's fit best suits them, but this is based on the chance set-up by the store technican. They don't understand why it is more comfortable and they don't realize that with a few simple adjustments, that the least comfortable bicycle can often be made just as comfortable. People are often amazed how I can "transform" their bicycle with a few minor tweaks of the saddle and handlebar position.
Again, this is "the" central issue around enjoyable bicycling.

I am amazed by some people's thought process.

I have seen people buy bicycles that are 3-4cms too long on the tt. Then they have to make it work with a dizzying assortment of stem experiments.

Riders should spend the time and money to get dialed in on a bike.

Write down the measurements!

That should put the rider off to a great start before a bicycle purchase is made.
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Old 06-10-13, 07:22 AM
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Very interesting article, thanks for posting. I'm personally looking forward to moving a few miles farther from work later this month just so I can commute on my steel bikes.

Last edited by elguicho; 06-10-13 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 06-10-13, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
In my experience, the biggest factor in performance is proper fit. Give a person a proper fitting bicycle and he will be more efficient, comfortable and faster. One of the big reasons that forum members prefer their steel frames is because they have taken the time to dial in their position or have adapted to it. Just pop onto some other frame, be it steel, aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber and you're almost certain to be less comfortable because it's not fitted to you. I believe that this is at the root of why so many cyclists develop allegiance to specific frame materials, brands, etc.

Unfortunately, most people do not understand bicycle fitting. Given a number of bicycles, most people are actually able to select the bicycle who's fit best suits them, but this is based on the chance set-up by the store technican. They don't understand why it is more comfortable and they don't realize that with a few simple adjustments, that the least comfortable bicycle can often be made just as comfortable. People are often amazed how I can "transform" their bicycle with a few minor tweaks of the saddle and handlebar position.
amen
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Old 06-10-13, 07:25 AM
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I'm waiting until they make a bike out of quartz. My current ride is made of pig iron.
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Old 06-10-13, 07:35 AM
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I have owned several steel bikes over the years, but my favorite ride is now an aluminum bike, since it's rigid but yet lightweight, faster and more nimble.
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Old 06-10-13, 07:40 AM
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This part of the study was particulary interesting:
.
Originally Posted by Study View Post
Traffic
Regardless of whether the bike is carbon or steel, you still have to stop at junctions and red lights.
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Old 06-10-13, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gomango View Post
...I am amazed by some people's thought process.

I have seen people buy bicycles that are 3-4cms too long on the tt. Then they have to make it work with a dizzying assortment of stem experiments....
Most won't even go through the stem selection process to make the correction. They'll just park the bicycle in the garage.

Unfortunately, that's what happens when the sales people are not trained and the consumer is left to their own means. It's particularly true in chain stores, where most people buy bicycles. I've spent time in chain stores while doing quality consulting for major brands. The ignorance is astounding. If they spent 10-15 minutes with a customer, assessing their needs, answering questions and doing a quick fitting, most customers would leave happy, with a bicycle. Most consumers are simply looking for a little reassurance that they're making the right selection.

Regretably, in chain stores, the bicycle margin is so thin that they don't want staff spending time with customers. While they preach customer service, in reality they want as little interaction with the customer as possible. Time spent talking with the customer, trying to close a sale, is only eroding the profit margin. Staff time is better spent stocking shelves or ringing through sales at the cash registers. Consequently, training is often inadequate and in many cases, it's very basic, self-administered, e-training. This results in two basic employees types. One type lacks confidence and is not willing to engage the customer. The other resorts to fabricating answers, to close the sale quickly and get the consumer off his back. Even when there is knowledgeable sales staff, they are subtly discouraged from spending too much time with a customer.
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Old 06-10-13, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Most won't even go through the stem selection process to make the correction. They'll just park the bicycle in the garage.

Unfortunately, that's what happens when the sales people are not trained and the consumer is left to their own means. It's particularly true in chain stores, where most people buy bicycles. I've spent time in chain stores while doing quality consulting for major brands. The ignorance is astounding. If they spent 10-15 minutes with a customer, assessing their needs, answering questions and doing a quick fitting, most customers would leave happy, with a bicycle. Most consumers are simply looking for a little reassurance that they're making the right selection.

Regretably, in chain stores, the bicycle margin is so thin that they don't want staff spending time with customers. While they preach customer service, in reality they want as little interaction with the customer as possible. Time spent talking with the customer, trying to close a sale, is only eroding the profit margin. Staff time is better spent stocking shelves or ringing through sales at the cash registers. Consequently, training is often inadequate and in many cases, it's very basic, self-administered, e-training. This results in two basic employees types. One type lacks confidence and is not willing to engage the customer. The other resorts to fabricating answers, to close the sale quickly and get the consumer off his back. Even when there is knowledgeable sales staff, they are subtly discouraged from spending too much time with a customer.
Precisely why I only recommend a few bicycle shops in town here.

I am hopeful there are more, but I know for a fact that the shops I mention to people will really take care of a customer's needs.

Whether a person spends $1,000 or $10,000, they should have complete confidence in the process, transaction, continuing service and overall experience.
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Old 06-10-13, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lascauxcaveman View Post
wood is good.
twss!
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Old 06-10-13, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FatherAlabaster View Post
debating the merits of non-asploding unicorn tears as an epoxy binder.
do you have a source for those btw?
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Old 06-10-13, 08:58 PM
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Just remember when one loses those pounds as mentioned previously, the weight difference between a 40 year old steel beast and a carbon fiber tech wet dream will still exist. And there is something to be said for the engine that powers these damn contraptions, and that is the underlying key to anything regarding them regardless of the material said contraptions is made of...

I think the most important thing is to get out there and ride, and if takes a chromed lugged steel masterpiece, an Al or a CF weight weinie wunderkind for you to do so, it's not my place to judge.
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Old 06-10-13, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by frantik View Post
do you have a source for those btw?
The tears dried up long ago.

Brad
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Old 06-11-13, 06:15 AM
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I have a steel bike at the UCI limit.

Material choice is irrelevant and T-Mar is correct. But with the caveat that the human body can adapt to variations so you do not need an "exact" fit. Merckx was a prima donna with that regard.
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Old 06-11-13, 06:41 AM
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For utility riding ...

12 mph is 5 minutes per mile. An older bike you can ride in street clothes at 12 mph will take you 5 miles in 25 minutes. This is well within Raleigh Sports capabilities. So figure another 5 for stoplights and it's an even half hour. I'm 4 miles from the library, and figure about 20 minutes to get there so these numbers seem reasonable to me.

If you have to change into special pants and special shoes, but average 20 (stressful, but possible in town) with the same five minutes for stoplights, the 5 miles takes 15 minutes for the ride, 5 for the stoplights, and about 10 to get changed once and another 10 to get changed at the end, so 40 minutes. Maybe more if the presta tubes need topped off before you head out. Maybe a few more if you can't put the cleats on until you've cleared the hardwood floors, but figure 40 minutes actual real elapsed time.

40 minutes for 5 miles is slower than 30 minutes for 5 miles.

So for utility riding, fast bikes sometimes really are slow. At 8-9 miles per leg, it probably evens out, but most of my utility riding is a lot less than that.

Depending on parking and how elaborately you need to lock it, an older bike can be quite a bit faster than a car, and I'm sure several of us have had times where we've shuttled between buildings or back from a lunch out faster than our car driving friends.
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Old 06-11-13, 08:03 AM
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Riding in to work this morning on my 86 Centurion w some modern upgrades, I wondered what it will be like for C&V enthusiasts of the future. The '86 beneath me was made while I was a sophomore in college, and many of us now ride bikes from that period of our lives, whether we could afford them then or not. What'll it be like for some college student of today trying to source a carbon fiber Raleigh Prestige when s/he hits his/her forties. I feel for 'em.

Of course, then the Flanders cycling team passed me on largely CF frames, and I drafted the poor bastards most of the way into the office.
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