What to look for in an old bike?
 

With this post, i'm hoping that your responses will create a "new to the classics" (as i am myself) guide.

Give us your rumaging hints,, what is the first thing you look at when considering a bike (about the bike, not your signifigant others' thought about you buying another bike)
Is your bigest concerns collectability, ridability, or saleability?
Based on derailler brand and make, can you assume quality in a bike??

I look for rideability, mostly. If all the parts are crappy and not easily upgradeable, it's not worth it.

My quick "quality check" involves looking for cranks with bolts rather than rivets (instant good sign), CroMoly stickers (better than cheap carbon steel frame), Allen bolts rather than hex bolts, etc. Another small thing for old ten-speeds: the cheap ones use stem/seat/brake clamps that aren't threaded, so the bolts have nuts on the ends. On the nicer models the clamps are threaded so no ugly nuts sticking out.

Frame, frame, frame. Lugged, double-butted steel always prefered. Cro-moly over Hi-ten. Reynolds 531 a sure bet. My size vastly prefered. Give any frame a good once over for cracks and dents.

After that, components. I've seen too many over dressed bikes-- what the heck are those Phil Wood hubs doing on that Murray?-- to ignore this. Find weird stuff-- a few nice leather seats, a vintage track hub, simplex retrofrictions, etc, etc, on the most unlikely bikes. You also see nice frames under-dressed at times, so component make isn't a sure sign of frame quality.

Are you serious??? The idea of someone buying a $300 hub for their $50 bike is hard to wrap my mind around.

Okay, you got me. It wasn't a Murray, it was an entry level Raleigh. But I like the way the Murray/Phil combo sounded, it was poetic, somehow. I have found things like mint Brooks Professionals (on a near destroyed entry level Miyata), Simplex Retrofrictions (Peugeot UO8 with bent rear stays), Vintage Brampton track hubs (Raleigh Gran Prix) and there's a few others that escape my feeble mind just now. It's not a bad idea to know thy componentry.

Tubing is usually the first thing I look at. Dropouts too. Components can really be a personal thing, one person's junk is another's prize. People will search out components that don't necessarily function as well as some others, but just have a certain appeal.

I like the idea of that combo too :) I should've kept my mouth shut. That being said, I'm gonna skip outta work and go to the thrift store at lunch time. Maybe I'll find me a Phillified Huffy.

When looking for frames - especially with older or very neglected frames, there might not be a nice sticker telling you what the frame is made of. Obviously, one would first ensure the frame is sound, but presuming that it is, look at the right rear dropout. If it is stamped - it certainly is not a high quality frame. If it does not have a separate hole for a derailleur to attach to, it almost certainly is not a high quality frame. If it has an adjustment screw (or the hole for an adjustment screw), it is almost certainly at least a mid-level frame (ie - not junk).

If you know what kind of bike it is, and have time to do research, you can look it up on the net (or ask T-Mar) ;)

I've heard this advice on dropouts is very good, but how exactly do you tell a forged from a stamped dropout? Are all "slotted" dropouts stamped? Because I have a Trek frame with slotted dropouts, but they're not flat, they have curved surfaces, and so I'm thinking they must be forged.

Hey, I like my Murray, and Phil Hubs would work just fine on it... I'll wait 'till I wear the Campagnolo ones out first though.

Solid :) I've seen a Huffy racing bike, but never a Murray.

Wow, she's a beauty!

I like the c record gruppo. Are those cobalto brakes?

You can't always judge quality this way though... Lots of older frames with nice lugs and quality tubing didn't use forged Campagnolo, Zeus, Simplex, Huret, etc. Drop-outs with derailleur hangers.... You have to take a closer look. Two examples I can think of right off, are my 52 Hetchins Experto, which uses Chater-Lea drops (no hanger- originally set up for either an Osgear or a Sturmey rear), and my '76 Jack Taylor "clubman" (fillet brazed 531, and STAMPED Campagnolo drop-outs - no hanger). Again, you need to take a closer look to determine quality (and I still don't always know what the heck I'm looking at...) A recent bike I bought at a thrift store was overlooked by folks thinking it was another junky Schwinn, like a Varsity or Continental... While it was another junky Schwinn, it was a fillet-brazed Super Sport, that looked like a lesser model, but it was made of much better tubing. Stare at potential buys for a while... You may see more than you did at first.

Thanks. Yep; Cobaltos less the "gem" (fell out...). I'll find something at the craft store to stick in there... I like emeralds or rubies better anyway.

No disputing that. I got carried away with generalizations. That's why I added the disclaimer to ask T-Mar. :p For nearly all large manufacturers a stamped dropout is indicative of their lower-end entries.

Pick the bike up. Weight can give you some idea of the quality of the steel when there is no sticker.

Actually, Zorro, I liked your post as a usefull generalization, even while I was thinking of exceptions too (Jeunet had a real nice frame, full 531, with no hanger on the dropouts-- the model designation escapes my mind just now.) Obviously, when looking at old bikes, a number of considerations come into play, and it pays to actually look at the bikes-- otherwise, you might pass up Other Guy's Murray-- or the slightly more common but still very nice Ross Signature line simply because of the brand. Generalizations come into play at first, but a good, hard look never hurt.

I still look at the frame first and then look for overdressing after that, though. And I find odd bits of overdressing consistently enough so that it is worth a look or two.

Franche Compte

A couple years ago I found a really nice Franche mixte frame someone put on the curb for trash pickup.
Cleaned it up a bit, added parts I had laying around, and gave it to my GF for a second bike. She loves it.

Sometimes the el cheapo bikes are best. For my 3 mile commute I can choose between a 20 yo, 19lb Bianchi with Columbus SLX tubing or a 30 yo, 26.5lb Motobecane with Hi-Tensile 1020 tubing.

The Moto has a longer wheelbase and is noticeably more comfortable on the brick pavers downtown.

The Bianchi is what I grab when I'm in a hurry though. :)

I'd agree with this post 110%. When you compare the quality of even cheap lugged frames
to todays aluminum frames the steel will win in durablity and ride everytime. It's entirely
possible to buy a sleeper lugged frame and with the right components (or add them)and
have a bike that is at least as good , or better, than many of todays custom lugged frames
at less than a 1/3 of the cost of the custom.

You can buy a really really good high quality vintage steel lugged bike with high quality parts that will last forever - like Campy NR or SR - and find them routinely for $300-$400. They will be used and perhaps a little dirty and may need new tires, new cables, new brake pads and such but they will be great rides. They will last virtually forever if taken care of and will actually go up in price. I fully expect to have my 1973 Raleigh International, my 198? Benotto 850, my 1981 Bianchi (all NR - not junk), and my newly purchased Casati 1983 NOS all Campy Victory for the rest of my life.

But - my everyday bike that I take to out-of-town rides and such is a 2005 Lemond Tourmalet Triple with new DA and Ultegra upgraded components. I expect the frame to last many years, but not as long as my steel classics. I bought the Lemond for ease of riding (triple crank/STI shifters) because I am older now and prefer to sit down while climbing hills - I ain't into being the first up the hill anymore - but my steel classics will probably be around long after the Lemond aluminum frame is worn out (although Lemond does warrant their frames for life).

I don't think you can go wrong investing in a classic steel lugged bike with Campy NR or SR, but those new bikes like the Lemond fit a niche, too. I guess it's true - my favorite baike is usually the one I just finished riding !

does anyone have pics to show Lugged /double butted?

Here is a lug, the black part. They're not all like this, some are simpler. Basically, they are collars at the joints of the frame tubes that the tubing inserts into. Double butting is harder (nearly impossible, unless you have xray vision) to spot on sight, it helps to read the tubing sticker. But old Reynolds stickers in particular tend to flake off, so it helps to know the shape and location of the stickers, sometimes you can tell by a "ghost" of a sticker.

good pics and descriptions on this page: http://www.oldmountainbikes.com/frames/

You know, I just thought of another method that I use to help determine quality of tubing used... This won't be helpful unless you've tried it on a bunch of frames, and know what it sounds like, but if you gently "flick" the main tubes with your fingernail, a thin, quality tube will give a "tink" sound, where a cheaper, heavier wall tube will ring more like a bell...(opposite of what you might expect) Not much help unless you know what you're listening for, but I sure notice it... So call me crazy ;)