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Vintage Frame, What is it? What Year?

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Vintage Frame, What is it? What Year?

Old 06-26-13, 12:48 AM
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Edinburgh Boy
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Vintage Frame, What is it? What Year?

Hi All,

I have posted on other threads, however I have been guided here to seek your help. I am told this place host's a wealth of knowledge, Thanks in advance for any help.

I am trying to identify this Frame: (the only identifying marks is the crest on the Forks)


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Old 06-26-13, 01:52 AM
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Identifying a frame requires finding some identifying features - as you no doubt know. Just looking at the bike it looks like a late 80's model but this could be incorrect. It does appear, from what you have stated and from what I can see, to have some type of crest logo cast into the fork crown. A better photo may prove to be the best clue to identify the frame. Is there any other branding on the lugs or bottom bracket? Sometimes the hole pattern underneath the bottom bracket may be unique to a particular frame builder. Also, occasionally a frame builder may have some sort of identification on the front fork's steerer tube within the head tube but this is usually a long shot. Sometimes stamped numbers or letters under the bottom bracket or on a rear dropout may help to identify a frame. Does it have any stampings?

As you are Scottish have you asked at an older bike shop in your area? Sometimes an older bikeshop worker can recognise a frame and/or the crest.

From my point of view, here in Australia, It does look like many other frames from that era. It may be impossible to find its heritage.

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Old 06-26-13, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Fountain View Post
Identifying a frame requires finding some identifying features - as you no doubt know. Just looking at the bike it looks like a late 80's model but this could be incorrect. It does appear, from what you have stated and from what I can see, to have some type of crest logo cast into the fork crown. A better photo may prove to be the best clue to identify the frame. Is there any other branding on the lugs or bottom bracket? Sometimes the hole pattern underneath the bottom bracket may be unique to a particular frame builder. Also, occasionally a frame builder may have some sort of identification on the front fork's steerer tube within the head tube but this is usually a long shot also. Sometimes stamped numbers or letters under the bottom bracket or on a rear dropout may help to identify a frame. Does it have any stampings?

As you are Scottish have you asked at an older bike shop in your area? Sometimes an older bikeshop worker can recognise a frame and/or the crest.

From my point of view, here in Australia, It does look like many other frames from that era. It may be impossible to find its heritage.
Thanks for the advice. I can only see 2 other identifiable marks on the underside of the BB, these are stamped in: 1 on one side and the letter E on the other.

I have asked at local shops but no-ones sure. It's probably a cheapo frame, no-ones heard of!!! but regardless it looks very nice and is in A1 condition, with only the odd scratch and chip. I love the way the rear brake cable goes through the top tube, other than the fantastic colour this was one of the reasons i purchased it.
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Old 06-26-13, 03:14 AM
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The frame has some nice features such as the internally routed rear brake cable and the way the seat stays are attached to the seat cluster. The fork crown is a nice shape and looks like a quality component. I wonder if the dropouts are identifiable such as Campagnolo, Gipiemme, Suntour, Shimano, etc? The rear dropouts have eyelets which is a little outdated for a later 80's racing frame - but if it was a locally built frame, the rear dropouts may have been all that were availabie at the time of building.

You could measure the bottom bracket width. A British threaded bottom bracket shell is 68mm wide while an Italian bottom bracket shell is 70mm wide. The threads are different (there are other threadings but these two are the most common). The British width and threading is the most common. This won't tell you much but you would know if it's an Italian frame if it is 70mm wide.

I think it's a good quality frame, perhaps not a top racing frame, but a frame worthy of keeping and riding. It has a nice Rolls saddle too - top notch in the 80's, and the headset looks like a Campagnolo C-Record headset which is top quality for the late 80's.

Oh, the 1 and the E probably are an internal (company) record as to who built the frame and what number frame it was that year - or something similar to those two explanations. We probably won't gain any information from them.

Last edited by Gary Fountain; 06-26-13 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 06-26-13, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Fountain View Post
The frame has some nice features such as the internally routed rear brake cable and the way the seat stays are attached to the seat cluster. The fork crown is a nice shape and looks like a quality component. I wonder if the dropouts are identifiable such as Campagnolo, Gipiemme, Suntour, Shimano, etc? The rear dropouts have eyelets which is a little outdated for a later 80's racing frame - but if it was a locally built frame, the rear dropouts may have been all that were availabie at the time of building.

You could measure the bottom bracket width. A British threaded bottom bracket shell is 68mm wide while an Italian bottom bracket shell is 70mm wide. The threads are different (there are other threadings but these two are the most common). The British width and threading is the most common. This won't tell you much but you would know if it's an Italian frame if it is 70mm wide.

I think it's a good quality frame, perhaps not a top racing frame, but a frame worthy of keeping and riding. It has a nice Rolls saddle too - top notch in the 80's, and the headset looks like a Campagnolo C-Record headset which is top quality for the late 80's.

Oh, the 1 and the E probably are an internal (company) record as to who built the frame and what number frame it was that year - or something similar to those two explanations. We probably won't gain any information from them.
Ive taken a few more close up pictures to see if this helps:
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Old 06-26-13, 04:19 AM
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It looks Japanese to me but I'm completely at a loss as to who's frame it is. It is quite distinctive so I'm confident someone in this forum will know. Sorry. Best of luck.

It is a very nice frame though.
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Old 06-26-13, 04:30 AM
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Thanks Gary Fountain for all your help, im sure someone will be able to help.

This forum is superb and full of useful information, i'll be sticking around here for a long while.
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Old 06-26-13, 05:17 AM
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I can't help you I'd it, but I don't think it's a "cheapo" frame. It looks to have been recently powdercoated, that and there are enough nice features to understand why the previous owner went through the cost of refinishing. Doesn't look like anything that was popular in the USA. I'd ride the beans out of it! It's a lovely frame.
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Old 06-26-13, 05:50 AM
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Agreed, the majority of the features (dual bottle bosses, integral shell bridge, internal cabling) suggest late 1980s, however there are some curious features for that era, such as exposed brake nuts and dropout eyelets on on the rear. It's hard to say if all the features are orignal, due the high proabability of a repaint. I was going to suggest removing the fork and checking for markings. Often there's a manufacturer and sometimes a date code, especially if it is Japanese, as previously suggested. However, given that there's no fork eyelets, there's a possibility that the fork does not match the frame.

The fork embossing looks familiar but I can't place it. The '1' on the shell looks like it protrudes from the surface rather than being stamped into the metal. If so, it was cast into the shell and is a shell manufacturer's marking, probably a die number. The seat post diameter may provide a another clue to the tuneset or at least the grade of the tubing.
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Old 06-26-13, 06:37 AM
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I paid a bargain (in my eyes anyway) 25.00 ($30.00) for the frame, (do you guys think I got a Bargain?) I'm very happy with it either way and as mentioned before put it all together with bits and bobs I had lying around. It's going to become my winter commuter and I intend on buying some full length guards for it at the weekend.

I will get round to your suggestions of measuring the BB and the diameter of the seat post, it would be nice to know what it is!!! but for now I will call it my Winter Ride.
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Old 06-26-13, 06:44 AM
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With no clear identifiers and a repaint it's a $75 frame at best.
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Old 06-26-13, 06:59 AM
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$75 for the frame - thats pretty good. If you were to buy the components to put it together, you would be paying well in excess of your $30 outlay. I think it's a bargain considering you are going to keep it as your winter ride.
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Old 06-26-13, 07:16 AM
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For 25 quid it's a deal, no matter how you cut it.

That fork crown (the style, not the emblem) is familiar to me as common on Cramerotti bikes of a certain era that I see here in Vancouver, Canada, and which were contract-built in Italy and sold through a shop locally. I sorted through a pile of similar forks, as well as seeing them on a number of floor models, at the recent bankruptcy of Giuseppe Cramerotti's Campione Cycles here town.

I'm sure that crown is fairly widely used (seen it on other makes as well) - anyone identify it? Would I be mistaken in thinking that this is at least a modestly distinctive feature, and one I recall seeing mainly on continental frames (maybe late 80s, 90s)? Maybe too common to be of any use as a lead; I don't really have the breadth of knowledge to say in the end...

Do you have pics of the dropouts front and rear without the wheels in?

BB and post details should at least give some small geographic lead and an idea of the tubing quality when you get around to that.

Whatever it is, a fine ride for about town, I'm sure...
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Old 06-26-13, 07:17 AM
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Great looking bike. The cutouts in the BB shell make me think of the little cartouche one of the Italian makers (Billato?) sometimes puts on the TT of their contract frames.

You shouldn't need to measure the BB and seatpost they should have the size stamped right on them, 36x24 or 1.37x 24 for the BB nd a number like 26.8, 27.0 etc for the seatpost.

What about the brakes? Did the frame really require this style or is just what you had on hand? There seems to a lot of extra mounting bolt on them.



Name of the dropouts? As mentioned by GF. Also despite the super short style of them you really should get some dropout adjusting screws.



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Old 06-26-13, 09:26 AM
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Thanks all for the comments. I will take some pics of the drop outs with wheels removed soon. I really appreciate all you help.

The spec is listed below:

Frame : (Help required to identify please) not got a clue!!! (Thanks so far everyone who has commented)

Crank set: Shimano 600 (52/42)
Front Deralliuer: Shimano 600
Rear Mech: Shimano 105 (i do have a 600, and may swap these over)
Shifters: Shimano 105 (on the wrong way i have been informed) you learn something new every day...Will get this changed at the weekend.
Brake Callipers: Shimano 105
Wheel set: Campag Mexico 68's with Campag hubs
Headset: Campag Veloce
Bars: Taken from my sons old Raleigh mountain bike (now scrapped)
Brake Levers as Above
Cables: All Jagwire
Seatpost: Unknown
Seat: Rolls (re-covered in brown leather by a friend)

I bought it and the original plan was to make a fixie, however I built the below bike about a year ago and made that a single speed, by adding a hub conversion kit, so decided to use what was lying around to make this Winter ride up. I really do love it.
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Old 06-26-13, 10:09 AM
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the BB shell (3 cutouts) is a mark associated with Silva, an Italian frame bit maker. Certainly investment cast.
I also have seen that logo on the forkcrown before, but am drawing a complete blank...typical...it's pretty rarely seen, I can tell you that.
Hope it comes to me in a flash or brilliance, but don't hold your breath.
I think you got a real bargain.

Edit: the dropouts are a "semi-horizontal" style, they may have a logo stamped on the face, I know Shimano made some in this style, maybe GPM and other brands, too...

that forkcrown logo is really eating at me, as I can almost place it, but... not...quite...I'm thinking it's Italian (or a Custom builder).

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