French <--> Italian C&V...
 

Vintage French:
*Rene Herse
*Alex Singer
*Peugeot

Vintage Italian:
*Colgano
*Masi
*Cinelli

Not wanting to start a war but just wondering why the Italian bikes are very sought after whilst the French bikes seem to be thought of in 2nd place...???


Peugeot had the most #1 bikes that won the TDF in the 100yrs...

Even to this day an Italian bike is coveted more than an French bike...
Back in the day I could not afford either and had to settle for an Araya from Japan which was kind of harsh and it has not held up and I rode the wheels off it 'til it broke...

It seems to me like a Chevy --vs--Ford thing (and B
MW --vs-- Mercedes, Audi....et al...)

I am full blooded German and where is the "German Bikes?"

Who says French bikes aren't sought after?

Amen brother. Amen.

Herse and Singer are two of the most sought after bikes right now. The reason you don't see many discussions or pictures of them is the fact that they are relatively rare and command stupid money when they do show up.

Indeed, there are hundreds of examples of fine French and Italian frame building craftsmanship. In the 1070's bike boom, the French fully invested and huge factories replaced many artisan "workshops" while the Italians mostly continued as craftsmen. Of course there exceptions on both sides but since the mid 70's, there has been a much smaller number of exporting French builders compared to Italian. This was Italy's golden age in the cycling industry, the 1970's and 1980's.

I collect Swedish bikes with French threading, some of which came with all French components. French bikes are fussy, difficult and temperamental... its why we love them. LOL The threading is all different to make it a challenge from the start, the components are hard to find and expensive and you need different and special tools to work on them too. Italian bikes are easy to find Campy parts for, inexpensively, and everything fits and works, usually.

British bikes should be mentioned too because there have been hundreds of famous British artisans over the years.

As far as the vintage German bikes go, I heard a rumour that the ship that was bringing them to America sank because they were so heavy. hahaha Seriously tho, modern craftsman built German carbon fiber bikes are among the lightest in the world.

Pip

Gitane has 11 TdF wins. How many does Peugeot have?

I have four French bikes. They fascinate me. I'm always looking for another.

Italian bikes don't interest me at all. They all seem the same to me.

I can't tell you whether a Cinelli is better than a Herse if you don't tell me what you want it for. They both made/make lovely bicycles, but for different purposes.

Can't agree with your idea that French bikes are less sought after, not in demand and not in pricing. For me personally I don't covet Italian bikes over French, although wrenching on the former is a bit less frustrating.

And yes, I do wonder as well where the Germans have been last century. There have been some high quality artisan builders (our German members can tell you more about that), but almost no large scale road bike manufacturers. I always wonder why there has been no German Campagnolo/Shimano-like component manufacturer... A lack of industrial capacity is probably not the explanation: in almost all other mechanical fields the stuff to have is made in Germany (tools, cars, cutlery, appliances, you name it). Altenburger is the only name that comes up for road components, and Sachs was part of Sachs Huret, off course.

There are a lot of things you wouldn't know to be German on C&V bikes, though. The steel used by Dedacciai, Columbus, Oria and many others reportedly came (maybe still comes) from the German Mannesmann mills, and they're big on bearings and chains.

In tires, German companies (Schwalbe, Continental) are really big though.
However, in 2013, the Teutons bring out the big guns in the ultra high end market: Lightweight, Spin frames, AX lightness, Schmolke, all produce carbon stuff lighter than a unicorn's fart, tested to extreme standards and so expensive you can buy a decent house for a fully equiped German steed. If you want a German bike, you'd best get a 3 kg modern art masterpiece :)

Apples and oranges. And peaches. They're all fruit, and all good.

Given the passion of the French and Italians for Bicycling, the Germans may have focused on the automotive market, not that Italians and the Brits didn't. Also, the industrial part of pre-war Germany was known as the DDR. The Allies pretty much destroyed the industrial capacity of Germany after the war. The French totally dismantled the Mauser factory in Obendorf taking all the machinery and the historical collection of Mauser rifles while barely leaving a footprint of what was there.

Yeah, but still, the same thing happened in Italy and the French industry was hurt as well. War damage is not really the answer; some countries got an extra boost since cars were too expensive and bikes filled the gap. Same goes for mopeds, in which Germany had a big industry as well.

They were too busy making quality automobiles. Maybe they were rich enough to buy cars instead of bikes and cover larger distances. In the US Sram made its entry when MTB got popular, before that, there was no demand in bicycles (well, except for the famous bike-boom. But that had something to do with an oil-crisis right?).

I'm just making a short-sighted guess here.

Hm, but domestic demand can't account for everything, I mean, how big was racing in Japan when Shimano and Suntour took over in the 70's and 80's? Even today there's 1 japanese rider in the tour, and 120 bikes with Shimano components :)

Maybe enthousiastic tinkerers riding bikes could be the answer, like Tullio C. and the brothers behind SRAM... But who knows.

Okay, so Post-war Germany largely ignored the high-end bicycle component industry, leaving that to the English, the French, and the Italians. We wonder why. We speculate that this has done the high-end bicycle component industry no good. But has it done the English, the French, and the Italians any good? In the long run, I think, it hasn't. And has it done Germany any harm? Again, I think not.

Post-war German industry seems to have recognized the fact that the 20th Century was the Age of the Automobile. As a business decision, you can hardly fault them.

I was thinking about a combination of wealth, being able to buy a car, and the density of communities. For instance, when a town is densely populated you probably won't have to walk for an hour to get a loaf of bread. When I close my eyes, I see French people riding a simplex equipped peugeot-randonneur with a baguette and fresh veggies in his basket he got from different peasants. Or a japanese man, cycling his way back up into the hills after he scored some just-caught cattlefish at the harbor-fishmarket on a miyata with a mix of suntour and shimano. I just don't see a german cycling from the butcher to his home after getting his weekly supplies of bratwurst and riding to his job at the Opel-factory. (stereotyping all the way...)

Hello....London Calling........

Well, Raleigh was practically the reason that Nottingham existed for instance, and vide the area where Peugeot and many others set up shop, it was a great booster for the economy, untill everything moved to Taiwan where it has been a source for tremendous economic growth. Now it's the same story all over again, until we move to Laos or somewhere in the Dark Continent in a few decades, or run out of materials and lament all the BSO's we built instead of lasting bikes.

But yes, Germany probably made the best bet. But don't forget the UK, France and Italy had huge car operations as well, but failed due to quality issues and insane union demands. All the other countries entered the automotive age with a vengeance, but the Germans did better than the rest.

there were some very good framebuilders in Germany also some "bigger" companies like Bauer, Dürkopp, Adler, there is an overview at the CR-Website:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Germany/Germany.htm

here are some of my German bikes
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5025/5...a1c93d42_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8...f8f3bde8_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5...cc615650_b.jpg

the last two were built by Hugo Rickert, one of the most famous german framebuilder. he was building frames for over 50 years.

High quality bicycles can be made anywhere. But different styles and brands has got varying following from culture to culture. For example, most French stuff almost automatically gets a higher rating in US. But France is not at all as exiting from a European perspective. And demand and supply also counts. Here in Sweden there was a big import of Peugeot race bikes, and the interest is not that great today - not so exotic and easy to get hold of.

But if we generalise to the extremes for what the most influential bike countries are historically famous for, then it gets something like this:
Italy - race
France - touring / randonneur
England - gentleman, 3-speed

Wow, love this forum everyday an education.
I love French Bikes, never had the same lust for Italian.
Maybe it is the french fries, french kissing etc...lol

This tends to be me also except for Olmo's which I just don't see many of. Got 5 French bikes that I ride myself.

I think there's the glamour that bleeds off from iconic Italian car companies to many mechancal things they make, including race bicycles...as it also does with a lot of German products and their cars..... The French does not really have that to the same extent. The french are more known for their esoteric, unconventional cars...and that does not easily translate to something desirable to most car and bicycle buyers....
JMOs....

[QUOTE=classic8tubes;15908685]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5...cc615650_b.jpg

I route cable out the other side of the lever and under the bar. Am I doing it wrong?

[QUOTE=Grand Bois;15909178]Don't think so, that's how I always did it, as it results in the shortest length of cable and casings, plus the cable will not end up under you palms which can hurt after a while....