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-   -   How Much Of A Difference Does 4mm Make? (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/912226-how-much-difference-does-4mm-make.html)

DiegoFrogs 09-10-13 07:44 PM

It's as much conjecture on my part as it would have been if you wrote it, too. It's not like I design bicycle parts and whatnot for a living.

sonatageek 09-11-13 04:43 AM

From a retailer's website:

Pasela is the standard all around touring or urban commuting tire. Its comprehensive size range insures that you can find a Pasela for most any usage. Ride it and trust it.
  • 27" has different tread pattern than other 700c Pasela tires

jimmuller 09-11-13 05:24 AM


Originally Posted by Standalone (Post 16052637)
dang. In my post above, I backspaced over wondering aloud about spoke tension because it was pure conjecture... haven't read anything about how it affects ride quality.

Jobst Brandt's book says that spoke tension makes no difference on how the wheel handles bumps, that tire deflection is so much greater.

SJX426 09-11-13 05:43 AM

Interesting that this topic was presented. I am awaiting 2 pair of Sun M13II, one pair 700C and the other 27". Both will be laced to Campy Record HF hubs. I guess I can do my own reduced variable test. The bike will be a 1984 Trek 610.

rootboy 09-11-13 05:50 AM

There's a thread over on the CR list at the moment. Some fellow asking about recommendations for 27 X 1 1/4 rims. When I posted that I like the Sun M 13 II rims I have, two wheelbuilders there piped up and said they both thought the rim was junk. Problems with the joints, un-even tension, not flat, etc., etc.

I haven't noticed such problems with that rim. Though I have only built one of the two sets I have, and, I'm no pro wheel builder.
Anyone else have issues with the Sun rims?

ColonelJLloyd 09-11-13 08:53 AM


Originally Posted by sonatageek (Post 16053466)
From a retailer's website:

Pasela is the standard all around touring or urban commuting tire. Its comprehensive size range insures that you can find a Pasela for most any usage. Ride it and trust it.
  • 27" has different tread pattern than other 700c Pasela tires

That's not true, though.

himespau 09-11-13 10:20 AM

I'm not sure you've got a 4 mm difference. You might have a 0 mm difference given that the 27" wheel has a 4 mm bigger radius, but a roughly 4 mm smaller tire. On the other hand, it's right after lunch, I'm full, kind of warm, and it could be that my logic/math portions of my brain are already asleep and waiting for the rest of my body to catch up.

Italuminium 09-11-13 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 16051902)
And a better-looking bike rides better. Everyone here knows that. So there you are.

another case solved!

rootboy 09-11-13 12:13 PM

Back in the day, I could sure tell the difference between a Coors and a Bud , blindfolded. But then, I cam of age in Utah, where , if you were lucky, the content came up to the max allowed 3.2. It all tasted foul to me. Like pee water. So I never developed a taste for beer.
Until I went to Beijing. :)
The only difference I can discern between wheel sets is between clinchers and tubulars.

Standalone 09-11-13 12:25 PM


Originally Posted by ricortes (Post 16054932)
"No one can tell what beer they are drinking either if they don't know before hand." This led to a blind taste test of beers. The testers included 5 or 6 'I only drink Bud' and 'I only drink Coors' loyalist. I was the aberration in the test in that I guessed 5 out of six right, lots of practice :), no one else got more then two right and people could even guess their favorite beer right.

When you start expanding beyond weasel piss, though... there are many drinkers who can distinguish between and among good beers. :)

Standalone 09-11-13 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 16053565)
There's a thread over on the CR list at the moment. Some fellow asking about recommendations for 27 X 1 1/4 rims. When I posted that I like the Sun M 13 II rims I have, two wheelbuilders there piped up and said they both thought the rim was junk. Problems with the joints, un-even tension, not flat, etc., etc.

I haven't noticed such problems with that rim. Though I have only built one of the two sets I have, and, I'm no pro wheel builder.
Anyone else have issues with the Sun rims?

A local bike shop mechanic (RIP, Mitch) built a 32 spoke 700c M13 II rim for me in 2010. I vary between 185 and more recently 200 lbs, and though I know I'm a bit heavy for the spoke count, I have had more truing issues than I would expect. The joint is off, too-- you can feel it in the braking and the anodizing there wears off pretty badly. Not a fan of that rim.

rhm 09-11-13 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by ricortes (Post 16054932)
...
All of which led to someone saying "No one can tell what beer they are drinking either if they don't know before hand." This led to a blind taste test of beers. The testers included 5 or 6 'I only drink Bud' and 'I only drink Coors' loyalist. I was the aberration in the test in that I guessed 5 out of six right, lots of practice :), no one else got more then two right and people could even guess their favorite beer right.
...

(with emphasis added)

Because, as you say, they were guessing. You got lucky!

jimmuller 09-11-13 04:12 PM

I built with a 27" M12II then de-strung it because the joint waqs too uneven. I tried polishing it down but that didn't really help, jutws left it with a flat spot that still grabs the brakes. The LBS guy said it wouldn't stay that way long, but I gave up on it. However I have other M13IIs that are just fine.

rootboy 09-11-13 05:11 PM

I have M 13 II's that seem fine. Good joint, nice and tight. Seems to be aligned very well.

BTW, you can usually fix those mis-aligned joints, Standalone. Unless it's really bad. If they're anodized, though, it'll leave a mark.

These guys I referenced on the CR list were both pro wheel builders, it sounded like, so I didn't want to argue with them.
But the M13 IIs I have seem to be fine. Maybe I got lucky?

Road Fan 09-11-13 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by The Golden Boy (Post 16051626)
I'm not trying to pointlessly argue- I'm genuinely interested in this.

I went from a higher volume, lower pressure tire to a lower volume, higher pressure tire.

I've experienced this with 700C x 25 to 28 and 28 to 32 and 1 1/8 to 1 1/4. In each instance- going from a smaller tire to a larger tire increases the "plushness" of the ride. I've ridden this particular bike with two different sets of 28s and 32s. I don't think it's a matter of the tire or the pressure. That leaves the hubs, rims and size.

If the 28 mm tire was running a lot softer than the 32 mm tire, it could feel cushier.

Bill Kapaun 09-11-13 05:54 PM


Originally Posted by rootboy (Post 16053565)
There's a thread over on the CR list at the moment. Some fellow asking about recommendations for 27 X 1 1/4 rims. When I posted that I like the Sun M 13 II rims I have, two wheelbuilders there piped up and said they both thought the rim was junk. Problems with the joints, un-even tension, not flat, etc., etc.

I haven't noticed such problems with that rim. Though I have only built one of the two sets I have, and, I'm no pro wheel builder.
Anyone else have issues with the Sun rims?

Over this last Winter, I built sets using:
CR-18
M-13 II
CRT 16 II (NOS)
5 had a perceptible flat spot on the rim joint affecting radial true.
Not enough to really worry about. I only made minimal effort to remove it, striving for more even spoke tension instead.
I'm riding the M13's and never even think about it. I even hit an old style storm sewer grate the "wrong way" bouncing my 230 lbs. out of the seat about 8-10". About 5 minutes with the truing stand and tension meter and it was pretty much in the same tolerance as when new.
32 spoke.
14/15 DT Swiss DS
15/16 DT Swiss NDS.
Shimano RM-30 hub.

I built one rear using a Velocity Synergy OC I bought from Peter White. It had a similar flat spot, but cost about 3X as much as the Sun's.

rootboy 09-11-13 06:32 PM

The one guy recommended the Kin Lin 5 ALM rim. 27 incher.
Not that easy to find though.

spacemanz 09-11-13 10:06 PM

I'm surprised noone has asked this yet, but what color are those tires? :D


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