just bought a frankenstein bike -- several questions on parts and how to proceed
11-03-13, 01:06 PM
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just bought a frankenstein bike -- several questions on parts and how to proceed
Hi,
The story(skip it if you want):
This is my 1st post in these forms, and I am really a newbie to sports and racing bikes. But, I was riding an old gaspipe bavatus for sometime, which a borrowed from a friend, and decided to get an upgrade. Today I bound gazelle champion mondial (appears to be from 1991). This this is 1st real bike. I am very happy with this bike. But it also has some issues and maybe somebody here can help me with those (i'd be happy to buy you a beer if you are in the netherlands).
Bike description:
The bike originally came with shimano 600 groupset. When I took it over it had the original 600 rear derailleur, some campy front derailleur (which I can't identify). It also has 7 gears cassette (I don't know if it belongs to 600 set). And finally it came with shimano STI ultegra shifters(!). These, shifters I think are ultegra 6500 (i.e 9 speed).
I didn't know much about how shifters, cassettes and derailleurs match until today. And I thought that the guy who put it all together had known what he was doing. But now I think he actually didn't.
Photos:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10685...081?banner=pwa
Problems I have:
The rear shifter sometimes takes two clicks to shift. It is unpredictable and there is no particular gear for which it happens (probably more to the ones in the middle).
The small lever sometimes doesn't what to move to shift down and I have to press it very gently and then it clicks.
The front shifter small lever almost always gets stuck in the inward position after i shift (and I have to pull it back in place manually).
I noticed that the cassette when it rotates very slightly travels sideways from the plane of the wheel (i.e. it doesn't rotate strictly in one plane -- I don't know how to describe it better) -- one guy told me it's okay.
My questions:
After reading some stuff on the internet i got that the shifting problem (when it takes two clicks) is due to a cassette not matching the shifter. I.e a possible solution would be buying a shimano 6500 cassette.
Q1: Is it also possible to find 8-gear shifters for a reasonable price instead, which will match all the other stuff I already have?
Q2: If buy the 9 gear cassette, do I have to buy anything else?
Q3: Would I be able to replace the cassette myself (by that I mean is there a chance I can screw the parts if I do it and better not risk it and pay a pro?)
Q4: Is it true that 9 speed STI are very unreliable and I better go for 8 speed or even to down tube shifters instead of buying a new cassette?
Q5: What is this movement of the cassette (deviation from a single plane of movement, see above)? Is it serious?
Q6: Should I worry about the non-native campy front derailleur?
My goal:
Basically, I want to spend as little as I can and get the most reliable solution possible. I don't really care for the top performance.
Thank you all in advance. Also thank you all, because this forum helped me a lot to find a good bike (at least I think i got one
).
The story(skip it if you want):
This is my 1st post in these forms, and I am really a newbie to sports and racing bikes. But, I was riding an old gaspipe bavatus for sometime, which a borrowed from a friend, and decided to get an upgrade. Today I bound gazelle champion mondial (appears to be from 1991). This this is 1st real bike. I am very happy with this bike. But it also has some issues and maybe somebody here can help me with those (i'd be happy to buy you a beer if you are in the netherlands).
Bike description:
The bike originally came with shimano 600 groupset. When I took it over it had the original 600 rear derailleur, some campy front derailleur (which I can't identify). It also has 7 gears cassette (I don't know if it belongs to 600 set). And finally it came with shimano STI ultegra shifters(!). These, shifters I think are ultegra 6500 (i.e 9 speed).
I didn't know much about how shifters, cassettes and derailleurs match until today. And I thought that the guy who put it all together had known what he was doing. But now I think he actually didn't.
Photos:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10685...081?banner=pwa
Problems I have:
The rear shifter sometimes takes two clicks to shift. It is unpredictable and there is no particular gear for which it happens (probably more to the ones in the middle).
The small lever sometimes doesn't what to move to shift down and I have to press it very gently and then it clicks.
The front shifter small lever almost always gets stuck in the inward position after i shift (and I have to pull it back in place manually).
I noticed that the cassette when it rotates very slightly travels sideways from the plane of the wheel (i.e. it doesn't rotate strictly in one plane -- I don't know how to describe it better) -- one guy told me it's okay.
My questions:
After reading some stuff on the internet i got that the shifting problem (when it takes two clicks) is due to a cassette not matching the shifter. I.e a possible solution would be buying a shimano 6500 cassette.
Q1: Is it also possible to find 8-gear shifters for a reasonable price instead, which will match all the other stuff I already have?
Q2: If buy the 9 gear cassette, do I have to buy anything else?
Q3: Would I be able to replace the cassette myself (by that I mean is there a chance I can screw the parts if I do it and better not risk it and pay a pro?)
Q4: Is it true that 9 speed STI are very unreliable and I better go for 8 speed or even to down tube shifters instead of buying a new cassette?
Q5: What is this movement of the cassette (deviation from a single plane of movement, see above)? Is it serious?
Q6: Should I worry about the non-native campy front derailleur?
My goal:
Basically, I want to spend as little as I can and get the most reliable solution possible. I don't really care for the top performance.
Thank you all in advance. Also thank you all, because this forum helped me a lot to find a good bike (at least I think i got one
).
11-03-13, 02:20 PM
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Your questions specifically:
Q1- you would need 7 speed shifters, not 8 speed to match your cassette
Q2- if you go the 9 speed cassette route you'd need to disassemble it and do the 8 of 9 on 7 thing described below
Q3- a mechanic would/should be able to do the 8 of 9 on 7 thing for you, but you could probably do it also by looking up how a cassette is constructed. The only possible downside is if the cassette is riveted together instead of "bolted" together, then you'd need to grind off the rivets to piece out the cassette
Q4- 7, 8, 9 speed is all proven stuff, pretty much all reliable.
Q5- hmmm if there's a lot of movement then not good (say an eighth of an inch or so), then possibly they mounted a 7 speed cassette on an 8-10 speed freehub without the spacer. If the movement is minor, then that's not the issue. Post a picture of your rear hub, and we'll know if it's 7 or 8-10 speed. Likely it's 7 if the hubs are the original 600's. Based on your rims, they are more than likely 7 speed.
Q6 - the campy FD should run just fine
First - Check your shifters. Your shifters are designed for 9 speeds, but your cassette is 7. This will not work, and you'll have the issues you're describing. It's difficult to say on my end if the "reluctance" of the shifting is due to the shifters, or the improperly spaced cassette. You can check by removing the rear wheel and testing the shifting without the wheel in. Have a friend hold the bike up while you test this, so as not to scratch the tube - just FYI don't pedal during this little test, and keep the chain slack and off your carpeting... You're just seeing if the RD moves left to right properly based on the shifter inputs. The rear derailleur should move freely both ways using the shifter's inputs and not be "sticky" or "notchy", it should be smooth operating.
If your shifters are hosed, the simple answer is to put it back to 7 speed downtube shifters (less $) - Alternately you can replace the brake/shifter units for ones that are 7 speed (more $)
If your shifters work fine, then I'd do what's called 8 of 9 on 7 (mid level $'s, but preserve the "brifter" shifting)
Your wheelset is likely to only handle a 7 speed cassette. 8 of 9 on 7 is this: 8 speeds of the 9 speed cassette, on the 7 speed freehub. That would leave you with 8 speeds completely compatible with your shifters (meaning 9 speed cassette using 8 of the original 9 gears that take up the space of your original 7 speed cassette which happens to have wider gaps between gears). To remove the old cassette you would need a cassette lockring tool and a chainwhip. You can look up what these parts look like, but removing a cassette is a fairly simple operation. A mechanic should be able to do this for you, but they may be reluctant to split up a 9 speed cassette - as some of them are riveted together instead of screwed together - it's real work for them in that case.
If the shifter is crap without the wheel in, then you may be looking at replacing shifters. In that case, you want 7 speed shifters, so you can keep the cassette. You can have them installed by a decent mechanic (decent being one that won't talk you out of doing it, trying to sell you a new bike instead).
Overall the bike is nice enough that you surely want to keep it and get it functioning properly. A similar bike new would be quite expensive, and there's nothing wrong at all with the remaining pieces of the 600 gruppo (lots of folks here really like 600 for good reason). If the shifters work properly, then the 8 of 9 on 7 thing is something that would be easier to do yourself than replacing the shifters.
You're going to have to face the fact that your frankenbike was hosed up when you bought it, and find a creative mechanic that will help you out. Don't get taken advantage of, the cheapest of the two options (downtubes or split cassette) should be $100 or so. New brifters might be around $200. Good luck. I love frankenbikes, and ride one all the time. You can fix this, yourself if you want to go that route, we can probably talk you through it...
Q1- you would need 7 speed shifters, not 8 speed to match your cassette
Q2- if you go the 9 speed cassette route you'd need to disassemble it and do the 8 of 9 on 7 thing described below
Q3- a mechanic would/should be able to do the 8 of 9 on 7 thing for you, but you could probably do it also by looking up how a cassette is constructed. The only possible downside is if the cassette is riveted together instead of "bolted" together, then you'd need to grind off the rivets to piece out the cassette
Q4- 7, 8, 9 speed is all proven stuff, pretty much all reliable.
Q5- hmmm if there's a lot of movement then not good (say an eighth of an inch or so), then possibly they mounted a 7 speed cassette on an 8-10 speed freehub without the spacer. If the movement is minor, then that's not the issue. Post a picture of your rear hub, and we'll know if it's 7 or 8-10 speed. Likely it's 7 if the hubs are the original 600's. Based on your rims, they are more than likely 7 speed.
Q6 - the campy FD should run just fine
First - Check your shifters. Your shifters are designed for 9 speeds, but your cassette is 7. This will not work, and you'll have the issues you're describing. It's difficult to say on my end if the "reluctance" of the shifting is due to the shifters, or the improperly spaced cassette. You can check by removing the rear wheel and testing the shifting without the wheel in. Have a friend hold the bike up while you test this, so as not to scratch the tube - just FYI don't pedal during this little test, and keep the chain slack and off your carpeting... You're just seeing if the RD moves left to right properly based on the shifter inputs. The rear derailleur should move freely both ways using the shifter's inputs and not be "sticky" or "notchy", it should be smooth operating.
If your shifters are hosed, the simple answer is to put it back to 7 speed downtube shifters (less $) - Alternately you can replace the brake/shifter units for ones that are 7 speed (more $)
If your shifters work fine, then I'd do what's called 8 of 9 on 7 (mid level $'s, but preserve the "brifter" shifting)
Your wheelset is likely to only handle a 7 speed cassette. 8 of 9 on 7 is this: 8 speeds of the 9 speed cassette, on the 7 speed freehub. That would leave you with 8 speeds completely compatible with your shifters (meaning 9 speed cassette using 8 of the original 9 gears that take up the space of your original 7 speed cassette which happens to have wider gaps between gears). To remove the old cassette you would need a cassette lockring tool and a chainwhip. You can look up what these parts look like, but removing a cassette is a fairly simple operation. A mechanic should be able to do this for you, but they may be reluctant to split up a 9 speed cassette - as some of them are riveted together instead of screwed together - it's real work for them in that case.
If the shifter is crap without the wheel in, then you may be looking at replacing shifters. In that case, you want 7 speed shifters, so you can keep the cassette. You can have them installed by a decent mechanic (decent being one that won't talk you out of doing it, trying to sell you a new bike instead).
Overall the bike is nice enough that you surely want to keep it and get it functioning properly. A similar bike new would be quite expensive, and there's nothing wrong at all with the remaining pieces of the 600 gruppo (lots of folks here really like 600 for good reason). If the shifters work properly, then the 8 of 9 on 7 thing is something that would be easier to do yourself than replacing the shifters.
You're going to have to face the fact that your frankenbike was hosed up when you bought it, and find a creative mechanic that will help you out. Don't get taken advantage of, the cheapest of the two options (downtubes or split cassette) should be $100 or so. New brifters might be around $200. Good luck. I love frankenbikes, and ride one all the time. You can fix this, yourself if you want to go that route, we can probably talk you through it...
Last edited by Chrome Molly; 11-03-13 at 02:23 PM.
11-03-13, 02:49 PM
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Welcome to the forum, Hellmean! Nothing to add to Chrome Molly's elaborate answer, other than that it's a nice Gazelle you got there. You'll find quite a few of us own Gazelles and are really fond of them. Enjoy!
11-03-13, 03:01 PM
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Wow! Thank you so much for this response!! I'll go with the steps you suggested: test the shifters and the hub. I will try to show both to a mechanic at local bike shop, maybe he'll give some opinion for free.
How do you want me to take pictures of the rear hub? Should I remove the wheel?
Also a person at an other forum suggested I buy bar end friction shifters. It seems like a good plan to me. Maybe I can sell the STI shifters if they are functional (at least to some degree they sure are, there seem to be people who would buy them in this condition) to offset the cost of bar end shifters and new break levers. What do you think?
The current STI shifters look very worn out and a bit ugly and spoil the look of the bike. Everything else is perfect about this bike, except for these bloody shifters. It even has a 3TTT competition handlebar.
Cheers!
How do you want me to take pictures of the rear hub? Should I remove the wheel?
Also a person at an other forum suggested I buy bar end friction shifters. It seems like a good plan to me. Maybe I can sell the STI shifters if they are functional (at least to some degree they sure are, there seem to be people who would buy them in this condition) to offset the cost of bar end shifters and new break levers. What do you think?
The current STI shifters look very worn out and a bit ugly and spoil the look of the bike. Everything else is perfect about this bike, except for these bloody shifters. It even has a 3TTT competition handlebar.
Cheers!
11-03-13, 03:15 PM
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We just need to know the model of the hub. If shimano 600, then we'll know. Pretty sure it's 7 speed, but knowing what's written on the rear hub would confirm.
Yes, you could go with friction shifters, that would be even cheaper. But for about the same $'s, or just a bit more you could have indexed shifters which might be easier for you to use. Downtube shifters are great if you live in an area where you don't have lots of hills. Even if you do, once you're used to them, not really an issue.
Yes, you could go with friction shifters, that would be even cheaper. But for about the same $'s, or just a bit more you could have indexed shifters which might be easier for you to use. Downtube shifters are great if you live in an area where you don't have lots of hills. Even if you do, once you're used to them, not really an issue.
11-03-13, 04:10 PM
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So I checked the rear hub. Apparently my bike has all kind of things going. I have shimano rsx fh-a410 hub, designed to accept 7 gear cassette.
I also made a video of my cassette movement: https://youtu.be/nu0oOC-cA-A
Thanks a lot for your help!
I also made a video of my cassette movement: https://youtu.be/nu0oOC-cA-A
Thanks a lot for your help!
11-03-13, 06:09 PM
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So I checked the rear hub. Apparently my bike has all kind of things going. I have shimano rsx fh-a410 hub, designed to accept 7 gear cassette.
I also made a video of my cassette movement: https://youtu.be/nu0oOC-cA-A
Thanks a lot for your help!
I also made a video of my cassette movement: https://youtu.be/nu0oOC-cA-A
Thanks a lot for your help!
The hub movement is not ideal, but shouldn't impact performance much. I'd get 7 speed indexing down tube shifters and ride it that way for awhile. If you get the bug later you can upgrade things. You have a nice bike, I think you'll like it.
11-03-13, 06:56 PM
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This thread is a great example of why I love bikeforums. 
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A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
11-03-13, 07:21 PM
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I really like these bikes the Gazzelles are pretty nice high quality frames that don't brake the bank. As for you shifting issues I can't add lot to the detail posts above. For a lower cost option some basic downtube 7speed shifters would be a good option you could still use your current brakes fine with nothing attched to the shifters if your on a tight budget. Yet I feel that investing the money to get some nice working 8/9 speed STI's or barends and the other parts to make them work correctly would well be worth the investment on this bike.
11-03-13, 07:49 PM
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Like others here on BF, I have a Gazelle - mine is a 1982 Champion Mondial AA Special. By far, it is my favorite "speed" bike. I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.
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hellmean
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11-07-13 04:45 AM
