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The Evolution of the Record Crown Race

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The Evolution of the Record Crown Race

Old 11-26-13, 11:27 AM
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cyclotoine
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The Evolution of the Record Crown Race

Couple photos.

Middle is oldest, probably 1960s record. Right is probably First Nuovo Record race and the left is a super record crown race.




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Last edited by cyclotoine; 11-26-13 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 11-26-13, 11:38 AM
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Very interesting, Cyclotoine. I like this kind of stuff. Although the profiles changed, it looks as though maybe the height of the unit remained basically the same. No?
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Old 11-26-13, 11:52 AM
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Yes it does seem the dimensions were similar but they found ways to make it lighter. The first one is one big hunk of steel! The last one would also be what came with super record. Does anyone have an other variations? Post them up! Interestingly, I needed the one on the far right years ago to have my headset 100% correct on my 1971 restoration. It ended up with the far left style. That bike has been in storage for a few years but when I get it out the correct race will go on!
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Old 11-26-13, 12:14 PM
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The one on the left looks like a Super Record race, which had to be thinner than the Record race to offset the thicker aluminum cups on the Super Record unit. Campy wanted the stack height to stay the same, so people could easily upgrade to Super Record. Thus, the crown race was made thinner.

While you can sometimes use a Super Record crown race with a Record cup, the lip of the cup will overhang the crown race. In some cases, the lip of the cup will actually drag on the fork crown.

Last edited by JohnDThompson; 11-26-13 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 11-26-13, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
The one on the left looks like a Super Record race, which had to be thinner than the Record race to offset the thicker aluminum cups on the Super Record unit. Campy wanted the stack height to stay the same, so people could easily upgrade to Super Record. Thus, the crown race was made thinner.
Thanks John! You're right, the left most one does appear to be shallower. Does anyone have a photo of a late model nuovo record crown race?

Edit Found this: Indeed thicker:



Another angle of the later Nuovo Record race.

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Last edited by cyclotoine; 11-26-13 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 11-26-13, 12:26 PM
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I'll look thru my stash tonight.
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Old 11-26-13, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
Edit Found this: Indeed thicker:

So what is that one on the left, with the groove cut around the outside perimeter?
I thought maybe later variant than Super Record.
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Old 11-26-13, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
Does anyone have a photo of a late model nuovo record crown race?
How's this?

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Old 11-26-13, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
So what is that one on the left, with the groove cut around the outside perimeter?
I thought maybe later variant than Super Record.
That I don't know, and any info on this variation would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps it was a very late version that had a seal in it?
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Old 11-26-13, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
That I don't know, and any info on this variation would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps it was a very late version that had a seal in it?
The NR race in my picture above has a very light groove, but it doesn't have a seal. I've had it since new and in the box, around 1983 or so.
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Old 11-26-13, 03:59 PM
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That is interesting. I had one like the first one Cyclotoine showed, with a somewhat deep but narrow groove in it. It came with what was supposed to be a NOS Nuovo Record head set I got from some seller in Europe. I posted a pic of it here, as I remember but no one cold identify it. Didn't look like any NR crown race I had ever seen so I returned the head set. Kind of figured it was a later model, like Victory or something. Perhaps not.
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Old 11-26-13, 04:02 PM
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It is kind of a shame that most of the pics of Campy headsets on Velobase don't show the crown race.
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Old 11-26-13, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
The one on the left looks like a Super Record race, which had to be thinner than the Record race to offset the thicker aluminum cups on the Super Record unit. Campy wanted the stack height to stay the same, so people could easily upgrade to Super Record. Thus, the crown race was made thinner.

While you can sometimes use a Super Record crown race with a Record cup, the lip of the cup will overhang the crown race. In some cases, the lip of the cup will actually drag on the fork crown.
Say, John, since they made the crown race on the Super Record headset thinner, so that folks could change over from NR to Super, why do you think they included that 4 mm thick washer with the Super record set? I'm trying to wrap my head around this, as headsets have always perplexed me somewhat. The NR and SR headsets are supposed to have the same stack height, if I'm not mistaken. 41 mm. I'm just wondering if they made the aluminum washer that thick to make up the needed height.

Last edited by rootboy; 11-26-13 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 11-26-13, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
Say, John, since they made the crown race thinner on the Super Record headset thinner, so that folks could change over from NR to Super, why do you think they included that 4 mm thick washer with the Super record set? I'm trying to wrap my head around this, as headsets have always perplexed me somewhat. The NR and SR headsets are supposed to have the same stack height, if I'm not mistaken. 41 mm. I'm just wondering if they made the aluminum washer that thick to make up the needed height.
From my experience the early Super Record Head Sets used a cut washer, the later the taller machined one. The machining ridge helped keep the wrenches from slipping off, (although Campagnolo made a tool for that).
The might have even made the lower crown race thinner still, but I never measured, it just appeared that way to me. I think the headset did "grow" a bit, still capable of using a 41 mm stack height, but it could swallow more.

On the groove... The very early Campagnolo headsets did use "O" rings top and bottom on the lower "cone" races. A pretty rare bird, hicampy might have an image. The groove was bigger than what is shown earlier in this thread. Small chance it is from an early offroad headset, I had one but it is long gone. The early mountain bike headsets had seals. They accepted the same caged bearings.
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Old 11-27-13, 02:23 AM
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Makes me want to dig in the crown race box.
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Old 11-27-13, 08:45 AM
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In 2009, when i disassembled my newly acquired 83 Colnago, I found the CR broken. I looked for a replacement but could not find one. I learned from one of our own BFer's, that worked at Trek back in the day, that they broke frequently and there was a drawer with many of them there. I gave up looking for one. My solution was to place it toward the rear, thinking the forces would be minimal. The CR fell off when the fork was turned upside down. There was paint all around the OD of the crown. I suspect that the CR broke on installation and was not noticed. There was no "feel" in the rotation of the fork, still isn't.

I recently acquired a Masi frame from Thrifty Bill which had a CR attached. Guess what, it is a SR CR! It will replace the one on the Colnago Fork one of these days. My understanding is the max interference is .002 inches for proper installation, otherwise you get this:
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 11-27-13, 11:29 AM
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Ouch. Yeah, one of the dangers, perhaps, of making the crown race so much thinner. Or, trying to force it on. BTW, SJX, I have read the max interference should be .1 mm. But I'm not sure. Is that the same as two thou?

FWIW, here is one with the circumferential groove, which the seller sez is Triomphe. I know not.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMPAGNOLO-T...item3a8514083b
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Old 11-27-13, 12:16 PM
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Most modern cartridge crown races are split to you don't need a tool to install or remove them but then it isn't really a race anymore since the bearing is not running on it. These crown races and the wedge thing that goes in the top are supposed to go to the side as that is where the forces are smallest (except when corning of course). If you are going to run the broken super record crown race I would advise running the crack at 90 degrees to the plane of the bike.

Interestingly I measured the height of various crown races last night before I mailed the super record and old record one off to London this morning. A nuovo record which it turns out I have is about 10mm and the older record ones were about 9mm and the super record was thinner still though I can't remember exactly how much so. maybe around 8mm. That is why in my photos the difference isn't as great.
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Old 11-27-13, 12:57 PM
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Ooh, this is interesting. I have very limited experience here, and I do all my headset work without "proper" tools, LOL. I got an early Nuovo Record headset, with the <C> markings, on my '71 Frejus, and I used to think it was pretty worn, because of those indentations, but I guess things could be worse. But I replaced that with a C-Record headset, with the holy top race cup, in excellent mechanical condition, but with the outer parts badly treated by a former/temporary owner (?), so it doesn't look even close to perfect, cosmetically, but rocks otherwise. I think the C-Record CR is about in the middle, between NR & SR, on thickness. But my memory's not exactly the photographic sort, & it's been done awhile ago now.
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Old 11-27-13, 09:45 PM
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Cyclotonine, Thanks for your advice. I will take it into consideration. Most likely I will replace it with the one received with the Masi. I can measure tomorrow.
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Old 11-28-13, 03:32 PM
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I am trying to complete a nuovo record headset currently and only need an adjustable cup to finish it. I looked at Sheldon's data base and see the cups are all the same so I could buy a french cup and lock nut and have a complete french headset (for who knows what)... but the database says french crown cone/race ID was 26.5 or 27.0. Is it possible campagnolo actually made a 26.5 crown race for their french headsets or do you think the 26.4 was close enough to jam on there?
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Last edited by cyclotoine; 11-28-13 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 11-28-13, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
I am trying to complete a nuovo record headset currently and only need an adjustable cup to finish it. I looked at Sheldon's data base and see the cups are all the same so I could buy a french cup and lock nut and have a complete french headset (for who knows what)... but the database says french crown cone/race ID was 26.5 or 27.0. Is it possible campagnolo actually made a 26.5 crown race for their french headsets or so you think the 26.4 was close enough to jam on there?
As Campagnolo did not make a special tool set to gauge and mill bikes with French steerers, my guess is that the only difference between nationality fits are the threaded parts.

Way back I bought a French Campagnolo headset to replace the Stonglight one on a French bike, exchanged it for something else as fitting the assembly was going to require dressing the headtube and steerer.
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Old 11-28-13, 04:26 PM
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FWIW, all of my French thread NR crown races have been 26.4, and the crown race seats of the bikes they came on were milled to 26. 5 or so, for that interference fit needed to press on the c race.
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