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Peugeot Mixte...? Or not..?

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Peugeot Mixte...? Or not..?

Old 11-30-13, 07:16 PM
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rdlange
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Peugeot Mixte...? Or not..?

so I just found one inexpensive. Says Peugeot, made in France. But not a lugged frame and alot of welded brackets and Shimano instead of Simplex or Mafac. Rear brake is on the uppers instead. Minus the checkerboard logo too. Wasn't aware that there were 'new' Peugeots vs 'old' ones. NOT what I expected. When did the French commit treason and do a Japanese on us? Just wondering.
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Old 11-30-13, 07:28 PM
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I think '82 was their first venture to the far east with Suntour derailleurs. They began using Shimano in '85.

It was probably due to the very poor French economy at the time and the fact the Shimano simply worked better.
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Old 11-30-13, 08:28 PM
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Peugeot Mixte...? Or not..?

Yeah, I stay clear of that Japanese stuff too. But man, keeping this old French stuff on the road is challenging.
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Old 12-01-13, 05:40 AM
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My 89 Peugeot Versailles features a mix of French/European and Japanese componentry. Here is a link to the catalog page which lists all the major components.
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Old 12-01-13, 08:49 AM
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There were some Peugeot Mountain bikes that were built in Japan in the late eighties using Tange tubing, Suntour dropouts and all Japanese components. I have one of them.
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Old 12-01-13, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rdlange
so I just found one inexpensive. Says Peugeot, made in France. But not a lugged frame and alot of welded brackets and Shimano instead of Simplex or Mafac. Rear brake is on the uppers instead. Minus the checkerboard logo too. Wasn't aware that there were 'new' Peugeots vs 'old' ones. NOT what I expected. When did the French commit treason and do a Japanese on us? Just wondering.
They *are* lugged, just internally so. My gf likes her Peugeot mixte, especially after I put more Japanese parts on it.



(Man, I need to take a new picture -- bike has been upgraded even more since this one.)
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Old 12-01-13, 12:48 PM
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In my opinion, Peugeot's use of Shimano and SunTour drivetrain components in the early 80's gave them a significant upgrade over the Simplex and Huret stuff used earlier. Plastic Simplex derailleurs shifted poorly, did not last , and the front derailleur had virtually no adjustment on it. By using Shimano and SunTour drivetrains, Peugeot became competitive within the marketplace-the bike worked. I feel that Peugeots from the 60's and 70's, and I am refering to their models under about $800 or so, are absolutely terrible. The rims were sometimes serrated, which meant that the wheels better be 100% true so they did not wear off the Mafac brake shoes or 'sound off' whenver you hit the brakes. Cottered cranks were a nightmare to service, straighten, etc. I have not even begun to discuss trying to replace French threaded parts. Better to have a Canadian or French made Peugeot from the early 80's.
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Old 12-01-13, 02:53 PM
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Alrighty then.
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Old 12-01-13, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jacksbike
In my opinion, Peugeot's use of Shimano and SunTour drivetrain components in the early 80's gave them a significant upgrade over the Simplex and Huret stuff used earlier. Plastic Simplex derailleurs shifted poorly, did not last , and the front derailleur had virtually no adjustment on it. By using Shimano and SunTour drivetrains, Peugeot became competitive within the marketplace-the bike worked. I feel that Peugeots from the 60's and 70's, and I am refering to their models under about $800 or so, are absolutely terrible. The rims were sometimes serrated, which meant that the wheels better be 100% true so they did not wear off the Mafac brake shoes or 'sound off' whenver you hit the brakes. Cottered cranks were a nightmare to service, straighten, etc. I have not even begun to discuss trying to replace French threaded parts. Better to have a Canadian or French made Peugeot from the early 80's.
Yes, Suntour drivetrain components were an improvement over Simplex and Huret, but it's not true that Simplex derailers shifted badly. they shifted very well, actually. The front derailer is as adjustable as any other, if you know how. Models under $800? there was no Peugeot model in the 60s and 70s that cost anywhere near half that much. Cottered cranks are only a nightmare to work on if you don't know how. My PX10 has the original 1974 serrated Super Champion rims that I built for it when I bought it new and keeping them straight enough not to rub the brakes has not been a problem. I have four road bikes with French threads and finding parts has never been a problem. I get the feeling that all you know about early French road bikes came from what you've read on the internet.
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Old 12-01-13, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jacksbike
Better to have a French made Peugeot from the early 80's.
Hmmmm.... French BB w/ French headset vs. Swiss BB w/ French headset
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Old 12-02-13, 02:42 AM
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Actually, you are 100% wrong in your assumption that all I know about French bikes is what I have read on the internet.
I grew up working in my Dad's bike shop, which he owned from 1957 until 1978. I then owned and operated my own bike shop from 1979 until 1998. So I know quite a bit , firsthand, about selling and servicing very many kinds of French bikes. I am very well aware , from being a Forum member for 8 years, that you really like French bikes, and I respect your opinion. Please conversely respect mine in how I view working on these monstrosities. I disliked working on many French bikes, regardless of brand, because of the very many problems that you would run into , which you would never have on a japanese made bike. That is why I gave my opinion about working on cottered cranks. Perhaps you have not spent 2 hours trying to remove a stuck 8.0 mm cotter pin from a steel cottered crank. Gee, sure makes removing a cotterless crank seem like a breeze. I rarely remember having such battles with any other country of origin bike. Working on mafac centerpull brakes and aligning the shoes is always a trip. Although my memory is not perfect, I do believe that early 1970's PX-10's were in the $7 to $800 range, when a UO-8 was about $125.
Being 58 years old, I have not gleaned my bike knowledge from the internet and wikipedia. I have offered my opinion and I respect your opinion on how much you particularly lik French bikes. Have some other folks chime in and see what they have to say. Best to you.

Last edited by jacksbike; 12-03-13 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 12-03-13, 04:14 AM
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Grand Bois -- you best be heading downtown, because you need to get to the BURN ward!

Though I'm not as old as jacksbike's stated age, like many others on this forum I've had experience working on brand new bicycles as well as those requiring a significant amount of repair. As much as I love staring at all those old 650B French bikes, jack's got a valid point about the "ease of access" that Japanese bicycles provide; this homogenization of standards can be seen in a number of different fields of interest.

Uniformity and collaboration with your peers, while dishonest, usually wins out the day. If Japanese bicycle makers didn't collude and share their tech (promoted by the Japanese Gov't., btw), we'd still be dealing with Swiss, British, Italian, French, Japanese, and Schwinn threaded parts and diameters. Instead, we've reduced the field to just Japanese/ISO, Italian, and a few niche diameters/technologies. That's reduced the cost of getting into the market, which has also produced new, innovative tech as well as reducing the cost to the consumer. Yeah, it sucks people can't have fancy schmancy botique whatever, but that's why cobbling together franken-bikes is a hobby, as is collecting deadstock parts. Great example of this in another field is cars (MG, Rover, etc.). Too bad when you harp and wax poetic about supposed superiorities, you end up becoming a hipster. Wait...scratch that. You end up being a snobbish bicycle hipster. Don't be a curmudgeon of either ilk -- it paints you poorly.

...

Getting back to OP: find out if it's one of those whacky half French, half Japanese/ISO threaded bicycles. Hope that it's the latter, because in the end your prospective parts bin will be bigger/cheaper. Peugeot switched sometime during the 80s, b/c I know my father bought a PY-10 sometime during his early 20s, and it's still French threaded.

Moving on past the origins and "breeding" of the bicycle, depending on frame style you might be able to move the rear brake to the mid-stay. Some mixtes shipped with the brake on the seat stays allow it, and some of them end up not leaving enough space between the mounting point and the seat tube, which prevents the centerpull from actuating. I'm not-so-secretly hoping that your frame is the former: mid-mounted centerpulls are ridiculously strong for what they are, and I think they look purty. Also, DO NOT lose the "upside-down" side pull rear brake. Trying to find a suitable replacement is a trial of patience.

MIXTE > ALL.

Last edited by smoothness; 12-03-13 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:32 AM
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Why do I want to retain the sidepulls? They seem baddly installed, look cheap, the front cable housing lead is cramped, and the rear cable rubs on the frame. Was going to put some vintage Weinmann center pulls on it, rear on the mid stay as suggested to a stamped bracket welded there. Not sure yet if I'll need longer reach.

Also looking at discrete racks, and a trekking bar. I intend to ride this. Finally, I have some vintage Sach Huret, as well as better Suntour VX derailleurs I can use for a wider ratio.

PO installed some new Kendas so I'll use them for awhile. Looks like I'll need some larger cone wrenches, too.

Thanks folks...
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Old 12-03-13, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jacksbike
Actually, you are 100% wrong in your assumption that all I know about French bikes is what I have read on the internet...
I think Grand Bois made an honest mistake assuming that you formed all of your negative opinions regarding French bikes and components from what you had read on the internet, because 9 out of 10 times that's the case. The other day I read a post from a guy that said he didn't like old French bikes because of all of the "special tools" you need to work on them. That's the kind of idiocy that we're used to hearing. However, I too would disagree with most of your post.

Simplex derailleurs shifted great, including the Delrin ones. Why? They used a second spring loaded pivot that kept the chain tension much more constant, an innovation that no one else at time had. The first "modern" derailleur came about when Shimano combined SunTour's slant parallelegram and Simplex's second spring loaded pivot in the 1980s. The plastic Simplex derailleurs didn't take well to abuse, but the Criterium on my '75 Raleigh is the original unit and still going strong after 30+ years of use. Simplex made literally dozens of wonderful derailleur models that were metal, they just weren't as common on this side of the Atlantic. Huret derailleurs were fantastic too. The lightest rear derailleur ever made was the Huret Jubilee. It shifted great, used ball bearings in the pulleys, and had a finish that made Campy stuff look cheap. The Duopar is arguably the best shifting high capacity derailleur ever made. You want to talk about fragile rear derailleurs? How about the SunTour MounTech, their top-of-the-line MTB derailleur at the time? They lasted a year or so at the most under normal service.

I can't imagine why you would say that Simplex fronts weren't adjustable - they certainly were (although the plastic clamps were dangerous). I'm also not sure why you would associate cottered cranks with French bikes. Most every low-end Japanese bike-boom bike came with a cottered crank, including the first lightweight bike I ever had. And yes they can be a PITA to remove. BTW, the first cotterless crank (and the first aluminum crank) was invented and manufactured in France. Remember to thank them silently every time you pull one off.

As far as French threads, yes, they can be a challege to deal with these days. What is referred to as "French" threads should really be called Metric Standard. It's a crying shame that metric threads and dimensions weren't adopted across the board back in the day. Who do we have to thank for that? When the Japanese manufacturers decided to flood the market in the US during the bike boom, they chose to use English threaded and dimensioned stuff because that's the backward system we were, and still are, using. Does it strike anyone else as seriously goofy that you use a 15mm wrench to screw on your 9/16" threaded pedals? Or that you might put a 7/8" stem into a 1" steerer tube, tighten it up with a 6mm allen wrench, and then install a 26mm handlebar? This is the stupid mismash of crap that we have because the "French" system didn't become standard.

I'm really glad that many folks are wary of old French stuff. More then for those of us who are a little better informed.

Last edited by SuperLJ; 12-03-13 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 12-03-13, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothness
Grand Bois -- you best be heading downtown, because you need to get to the BURN ward!

Though I'm not as old as jacksbike's stated age,...
Judging by that opening, you must be closer to twelve.

I'm pretty sure I'm not a hipster. In fact, I'm not sure what it means.
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Old 12-03-13, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperLJ
I think Grand Bois made an honest mistake assuming that you formed all of your negative opinions regarding French bikes and components from what you had read on the internet, because 9 out of 10 times that's the case. The other day I read a post from a guy that said he didn't like old French bikes because of all of the "special tools" you need to work on them. That's the kind of idiocy that we're used to hearing. However, I too would disagree with most of your post.

Simplex derailleurs shifted great, including the Delrin ones. Why? They used a second spring loaded pivot that kept the chain tension much more constant, an innovation that no one else at time had. The first "modern" derailleur came about when Shimano combined SunTour's slant parallelegram and Simplex's second spring loaded pivot in the 1980s. The plastic Simplex derailleurs didn't take well to abuse, but the Criterium on my '75 Raleigh is the original unit and still going strong after 30+ years of use. Simplex made literally dozens of wonderful derailleur models that were metal, they just weren't as common on this side of the Atlantic. Huret derailleurs were fantastic too. The lightest rear derailleur ever made was the Huret Jubilee. It shifted great, used ball bearings in the pulleys, and had a finish that made Campy stuff look cheap. The Duopar is arguably the best shifting high capacity derailleur ever made. You want to talk about fragile rear derailleurs? How about the SunTour MounTech, their top-of-the-line MTB derailleur at the time? They lasted a year or so at the most under normal service.

I can't imagine why you would say that Simplex fronts weren't adjustable - they certainly were (although the plastic clamps were dangerous). I'm also not sure why you would associate cottered cranks with French bikes. Most every low-end Japanese bike-boom bike came with a cottered crank, including the first lightweight bike I ever had. And yes they can be a PITA to remove. BTW, the first cotterless crank (and the first aluminum crank) was invented and manufactured in France. Remember to thank them silently every time you pull one off.

As far as French threads, yes, they can be a challege to deal with these days. What is referred to as "French" threads should really be called Metric Standard. It's a crying shame that metric threads and dimensions weren't adopted across the board back in the day. Who do we have to thank for that? When the Japanese manufacturers decided to flood the market in the US during the bike boom, they chose to use English threaded and dimensioned stuff because that's the backward system we were, and still are, using. Does it strike anyone else as seriously goofy that you use a 15mm wrench to screw on your 9/16" threaded pedals? Or that you might put a 7/8" stem into a 1" steerer tube, tighten it up with a 6mm allen wrench, and then install a 26mm handlebar? This is the stupid mismash of crap that we have because the "French" system didn't become standard.

I'm really glad that many folks are wary of old French stuff. More then for those of us who are a little better informed.
I find nothing wrong with french bikes, but you come off in this particular post, like that guy who blew out his knee Sr. Year of High School and never got to play College Ball. I agree though, Metric should be the standard of the world.
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Old 12-03-13, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lord_athlon
...you come off in this particular post, like that guy who blew out his knee Sr. Year of High School and never got to play College Ball.

Don't really understand your metaphor at all, but OK, sure.
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Old 12-03-13, 01:54 PM
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You are not alone.
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Old 12-03-13, 02:47 PM
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Well, I guess we can all agree to disagree and have our own opinions about things. I realize that Grand Bois loves French bikes and that is great. I cannot agree with everything that SuperLJ is stating. Yes, aluminum and metal Simplex derailleurs shifted OK-it is the plastic ones , both front and rear that were problems. Front derailleurs with the plastic and metal clamps would crack in half-I surely don't ever remember SunTour and Shimano front derailleur clamps cracking in half. Plus, you had an outer chainring adjustment screw, but in order to adjust to the inside sprocket you would have to physically re -position the derailleur hanger on the 'bar' that pushed it out. Japanese derailleurs have 2 adjustment screws - much easier. Boy do I remember the piles of useless and money pit piles of French threaded parts that I had to keep at my shop for the various French brand bikes that I had sold. French threaded headsets, pedals, freewheels, bb's - let alone 24. 0 mm seat posts, French diameter stems and handlebars. Maybe the Japanese just set the standard for quality and interchangeability. Stems, handlebars, cranksets, pedals, freewheels -just switcheroo whatever you want. Nothing like telling a customer that you can't upgrade a part on his or her bike cause there is no selection available. As to what Super LJ has mentioned about cottered cranksets- maybe it just seems that it was always the French bikes that had 8.0 mm cotter pins frozen , but I rarely remember spending as much time on Japanese and other bikes drilling out cotter pin holes. If you like French bikes , that is just fine. I have a beautiful Italian made Italvega with fully Campy Record all drilled out and it is a wonderful bike. I will be the first to agree that French bikes, along with other Euorpean brands, have a more lively ride than the neutral handling Japanese bikes. It is just the serviceability and availabilty of parts that is the problem. I would much rather buy a used Fuji bike rather than a 1971 Peugeot U0-8, for all the reasons that I have just recounted.
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Old 12-03-13, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperLJ
Don't really understand your metaphor at all, but OK, sure.
I was just giving you a hard time about seeming upset about a missed opportunity for french threads to be standard.
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Old 12-03-13, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jacksbike
Well, I guess we can all agree to disagree and have our own opinions about things. I realize that Grand Bois loves French bikes and that is great. I cannot agree with everything that SuperLJ is stating. Yes, aluminum and metal Simplex derailleurs shifted OK-it is the plastic ones , both front and rear that were problems. Front derailleurs with the plastic and metal clamps would crack in half-I surely don't ever remember SunTour and Shimano front derailleur clamps cracking in half. Plus, you had an outer chainring adjustment screw, but in order to adjust to the inside sprocket you would have to physically re -position the derailleur hanger on the 'bar' that pushed it out. Japanese derailleurs have 2 adjustment screws - much easier. Boy do I remember the piles of useless and money pit piles of French threaded parts that I had to keep at my shop for the various French brand bikes that I had sold. French threaded headsets, pedals, freewheels, bb's - let alone 24. 0 mm seat posts, French diameter stems and handlebars. Maybe the Japanese just set the standard for quality and interchangeability. Stems, handlebars, cranksets, pedals, freewheels -just switcheroo whatever you want. Nothing like telling a customer that you can't upgrade a part on his or her bike cause there is no selection available. As to what Super LJ has mentioned about cottered cranksets- maybe it just seems that it was always the French bikes that had 8.0 mm cotter pins frozen , but I rarely remember spending as much time on Japanese and other bikes drilling out cotter pin holes. If you like French bikes , that is just fine. I have a beautiful Italian made Italvega with fully Campy Record all drilled out and it is a wonderful bike. I will be the first to agree that French bikes, along with other Euorpean brands, have a more lively ride than the neutral handling Japanese bikes. It is just the serviceability and availabilty of parts that is the problem. I would much rather buy a used Fuji bike rather than a 1971 Peugeot U0-8, for all the reasons that I have just recounted.

I've had many a british cotter that wont budge.
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Old 12-03-13, 03:01 PM
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So it looks like we have 4 part timers trying to hash it out with a few veterans.... good luck, we're to smart for that kind of childish nonsense. We let the 41'rs play in sand box.
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Old 12-03-13, 03:23 PM
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Is 41 a subforum?
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Old 12-03-13, 04:30 PM
  #24  
SuperLJ
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Bikes: 1975 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1978 Bertin C35, 1982 Trek 614, 1983 Trek 620, 1984 Nishiki Seral, 1995 Mercian KoM, 1998 Fisher HKEK, 2000 Rivendell RS, 2001 Heron Touring, 2016 Nobilette Custom

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Originally Posted by miamijim
So it looks like we have 4 part timers trying to hash it out with a few veterans.... good luck, we're to smart for that kind of childish nonsense. We let the 41'rs play in sand box.
We bow to you, oh full-time 181 God!

If I had nothing better to do with my time than make snarky put downs on threads that didn't interest me anyway, I'd have over 10,000 posts too...

Last edited by SuperLJ; 12-03-13 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-03-13, 04:35 PM
  #25  
lord_athlon
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Originally Posted by SuperLJ
We bow to you, oh full-time 181 God!

If I had nothing better to do with my time than make snarky put down on threads that didn't interest me, I'd have over 10,000 posts too...
I didnt mean anything by what I said to you. I agree with you, metric should be standard.

It was worse when I was a kid. BMX parts are half schwinn, half British/Japanese with a slight sprinkling of Made in America: 1/4 instead of 6mm just to prove a point.
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