Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Powder coat dilemma

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Powder coat dilemma

Old 12-09-13, 10:40 PM
  #1  
webike4fun
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SUNNY DIEGO....Near Mission Trails
Posts: 245

Bikes: Serotta Colorado II, Colnago Team Bukler, Celo Europa (s)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Powder coat dilemma

I recently spoke with a bike shop owner in the Orange County area about a nice frame that was "repainted" using the powder coating process. His remarks were the frame will ride "dead" as the Columbus SL tubes are thin enough and sensitive enough to react to the process? Ok I need everyone's .02
webike4fun is offline  
Old 12-09-13, 10:57 PM
  #2  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 17,334

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4626 Post(s)
Liked 1,012 Times in 691 Posts
Since the bike has been "deadened" by the repaint, do the bike shop owner a favor and let him give you the "dead" bike. You can report back in a few years whether you think he's right or not.
bikemig is offline  
Old 12-09-13, 11:31 PM
  #3  
cyclotoine
Senior Member
 
cyclotoine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yukon, Canada
Posts: 8,772
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
react to the process? Never ever ever have I heard anyone in the frame building world say anything about powder coating affecting the grain structure of the steel alloy.

Also, I think that people on the forum should be aware that bike shop owners are regular people and probably more than half of them know half as much as more than half of us. I constantly here people say "well at the bike shop they said..." and all I can do is roll my eyes and advise them that they are being fed some old bike lore or myth that simply isn't true.
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

Last edited by cyclotoine; 12-10-13 at 12:02 AM.
cyclotoine is offline  
Old 12-09-13, 11:51 PM
  #4  
WNG
Spin Forest! Spin!
 
WNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Arrid Zone-a
Posts: 5,964

Bikes: I used to have many. And I Will again.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
LOL! Thanks I got my good chuckle for today!

There is nothing in the process of powdercoating that can 'deaden' the steel frame. One can possibly damage the brazing of a brazed frame if it was improperly sand-blasted as prep. The baking process temperature is way lower than that from the brazing torch.
WNG is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 12:20 AM
  #5  
etherhuffer
Senior Member
 
etherhuffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Seattle
Posts: 812

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Trucker,81 Fuji Gran Tour SE, 83 Fuji S12S LTD, Voyageur 11.8 chrome, Raleigh R300 Touring, Voyageur 11.8

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 38 Posts
There is one slight drawback to powdercoat. If you have any engraved logos, like the top of my fork crown where it has molded in "Fuji" then paint looks better. Powder tends to fill in the lettering so you can't see it. If I had a cool rare bike with lots of logo work I would use paint.
etherhuffer is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 12:49 AM
  #6  
Kactus 
Senior Member
 
Kactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,817

Bikes: 1962 Schwinn Paramount P12, 1971 Schwinn Paramount P13-9

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 14 Posts
I suspect that what the owner was trying to say is that the thickness of the coating will affect the stiffness and vibrational dynamics of the frame, not the physical structure of the steel itself, i.e: you could place a 1/2" thick fiberglass resin around the entire frame and while not affecting the steels properties it certainly would ride differently. Now whether or not the powder coat is thick enough and stiff enough to make a discernible difference in the bikes ride quality I have no idea but seriously doubt many, if any, people would notice a difference.

If you like the frame and it's reasonably priced I wouldn't worry about it!
__________________
Life... is a state of mind.
Kactus is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 12:57 AM
  #7  
Lascauxcaveman 
Senior Member
 
Lascauxcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Angeles, WA
Posts: 7,862

Bikes: A green one, "Ragleigh," or something.

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 430 Times in 252 Posts
B-b-b-but a powder coat finish can weigh as much as 1/8 oz more than a standard paint job, if applied in exactly the right way...
__________________
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Trek 400 ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Lascauxcaveman is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 01:18 AM
  #8  
WNG
Spin Forest! Spin!
 
WNG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Arrid Zone-a
Posts: 5,964

Bikes: I used to have many. And I Will again.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
The OP stated the shop owner referred to the 'process', not the perceived thickness of the powdercoat, which is still much much less than the thickness of the steel.
WNG is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 05:53 AM
  #9  
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Posts: 3,896

Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Unless they fill the frame with powder coat....
Michael Angelo is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 06:25 AM
  #10  
Kobe 
Senior Member
 
Kobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Schwenksville, Pa
Posts: 2,598
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
Unless they fill the frame with powder coat....
Wouldn't that make it powder underwear?
__________________
'88 Proteus,'07 Rivendell AHH,'13 Black Mountain Cycles Cross, '16 Clockwork All-Rounder,'19 Gunnar Sport



Kobe is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 06:54 AM
  #11  
Hudson308 
Mr. Anachronism
 
Hudson308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: City of Lakes
Posts: 1,964

Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 487 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 116 Posts
I recently had three frames powdercoated with a two-step effect that uses a solid base color followed by a chameleon (color-shifting) "metalflake". This likely results in a thicker coating than you would get with a single solid color, so I was curious to see how much weigh it would add to a 56cm frame. The frame coating added 1.28oz (36.3g), and the fork coating added 0.32oz (9.1g). Total weight added was 1.6oz (45.4g). It would be interesting to compare that with a typical paint job. There was no discernable change in ride characteristics. My local powdercoater uses a 400 deg. (f) industrial oven for the process. The powder did fill in shallower bits of the serial number, and softened some embossed detail. Overall I'm very happy with the results.
__________________
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." -Irwin Corey
Hudson308 is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 07:27 AM
  #12  
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,270

Bikes: 73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 87 Centurion Ironman Expert, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PFN10

Mentioned: 180 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1165 Post(s)
Liked 146 Times in 95 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
Also, I think that people on the forum should be aware that bike shop owners are regular people and probably more than half of them know half as much as more than half of us.
"And I like less than half of [them] half as much as [they] deserve..."
Originally Posted by WNG View Post
The OP stated the shop owner referred to the 'process', not the perceived thickness of the powdercoat,
The shop owner could have used "process" for the general concept, not drawing a distinction between the process and the final result. But it still doesn't make him right (or wrong).

I dropped into when I saw the words "orange" and "powder coating" in the same sentence. Then I figured, naw, I posted those pics elsewhere just a day or two ago so I won't subject anyone to them again.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 09:23 AM
  #13  
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Posts: 3,896

Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
I just painted a frame it took 9 coats of paint, including sealer etchers, primers, base primers color base and clears. Feels perfect to me....
Michael Angelo is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 09:32 AM
  #14  
16Victor 
Lanterne rouge
 
16Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Posts: 634

Bikes: 1974 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Raleigh Competition GS, 1986 Vitus 979, 1988 Trek 360, 1991 Trek 7000 MTB, 1999 Burley Rumba tandem

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hudson308 View Post
I recently had three frames powdercoated
Heretic

I reckon that powdercoating *might* affect the dynamic response of the frame by altering its resonant frequency...thus maybe affecting feel. I'm stacking a maybe on top of a might so I'm not certain it'd have much affect.

Any change in strength would be negligible.
__________________
Ron
Any problem can be solved with the proper application of force, heat, chemicals, or money.
16Victor is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 10:16 AM
  #15  
irwin7638
Senior Member
 
irwin7638's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi.
Posts: 3,028

Bikes: Byron,Sam, The Hunq and that Old Guy, Soma Buena Vista, Giant Talon 2

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by etherhuffer View Post
There is one slight drawback to powdercoat. If you have any engraved logos, like the top of my fork crown where it has molded in "Fuji" then paint looks better. Powder tends to fill in the lettering so you can't see it. If I had a cool rare bike with lots of logo work I would use paint.
I've heard of that, but haven't seen the problem with two different brand frames.


Marc
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
IMG_1187.JPG (17.7 KB, 70 views)
irwin7638 is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 10:17 AM
  #16  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 14,726
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 313 Posts
Originally Posted by 16Victor View Post
Heretic

I reckon that powdercoating *might* affect the dynamic response of the frame by altering its resonant frequency...thus maybe affecting feel. I'm stacking a maybe on top of a might so I'm not certain it'd have much affect.

Any change in strength would be negligible.
I don't like powdercoat for other reasons such as long term rust protection, although my exposure to it has all been with single stage applications.

The concept that the baking cycle of 400 F will alter the steel is urban legend. Some of this view is from direct experience, some from materials and process education in college.

However, with aluminum I would do some good referencing before I sent one off to be powdercoated.
repechage is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 10:48 AM
  #17  
16Victor 
Lanterne rouge
 
16Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Posts: 634

Bikes: 1974 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Raleigh Competition GS, 1986 Vitus 979, 1988 Trek 360, 1991 Trek 7000 MTB, 1999 Burley Rumba tandem

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I don't like powdercoat for other reasons such as long term rust protection, although my exposure to it has all been with single stage applications.

The concept that the baking cycle of 400 F will alter the steel is urban legend. Some of this view is from direct experience, some from materials and process education in college.

However, with aluminum I would do some good referencing before I sent one off to be powdercoated.
Bingo. And good points. I was speaking from the perspective of the added material bonded to the steel (assumed) tubes. Steel's crystal structure will be unaffected until nearly 800*C.
__________________
Ron
Any problem can be solved with the proper application of force, heat, chemicals, or money.
16Victor is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 11:15 AM
  #18  
howeeee
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
I just painted a frame it took 9 coats of paint, including sealer etchers, primers, base primers color base and clears. Feels perfect to me....
I prefer paint over power coat
howeeee is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 12:22 PM
  #19  
Cross Creek
Senior Member
 
Cross Creek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 346

Bikes: 2013 Rivendell Sam, 1996 Bianchi Milano, 1994 Trek 820

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I don't like powdercoat for other reasons such as long term rust protection....
The US and UK navies went to powdercoating everywhere possible a couple of decades ago precisely because their engineers (and real world experience) determined that ships had less corrosion with powdercoat than with traditional paint methods.
Cross Creek is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 01:12 PM
  #20  
Velognome 
Get off my lawn!
 
Velognome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 6,247

Bikes: 1917 Loomis, 1923 Rudge, 1930 Hercules Renown, 1947 Mclean, 1948 JA Holland, 1955 Hetchins, 1957 Carlton Flyer, 1962 Raleigh Sport, 1978&81 Raleigh Gomp GS', 2010 Raliegh Clubman

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 56 Times in 30 Posts
Sounds like an opportunity to take the "Dead POS Frame" off his hands for cheap.....remind him it's a dead frame when you ask the price.
Velognome is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 01:20 PM
  #21  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 14,726
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 313 Posts
Originally Posted by Cross Creek View Post
The US and UK navies went to powdercoating everywhere possible a couple of decades ago precisely because their engineers (and real world experience) determined that ships had less corrosion with powdercoat than with traditional paint methods.
Mil spec powdercoating is not the typical consumer grade materials and or application.

With that in mind, the US Navy does not have structures that resemble a bicycle frame very much. A tubular structure with possibly ornate reinforcements and their sharp edges and the possible multitude of braze ons that have often plenty of sharp edges and small cavities, all surfaces not easy to apply a nice uniform thickness of powder to be melted into a film. Also, consider what this fluid does in its semi molten state, it pulls away from sharp edges reducing the final film thickness there. Physics cannot be avoided. Experienced applicators of powder coat materials can make up for some of this deficit by adding material at problematic regions, a second layer will help even more.
Note I stated my experience was with single stage applications.
What I have found is that upon chemical stripping of all the single stage powder coat jobs on bikes I have had done or purchased over the years there is plenty of corrosion propagating from this thin film areas that was NOT visible from the outside looking in.
On a lugless bike with carefully radiuses edges and few if any braze ons one will have a better outcome.
A two stage application will by definition have a better chance of corrosion protection due to the additional film thickness.
With either approach, powder coat will obscure detail such as serial numbers and engraving, lug windows more, and more often than a wet paint job.
repechage is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 03:30 PM
  #22  
CroMo Mike 
All Campy All The Time
 
CroMo Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,269

Bikes: Listed in my signature.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
The temper will go out of 6061-T6 Aluminum at something like 275 to 300F. Not a good idea to put an aluminum frame in a 400F oven.

I bet one reason for the increased use of powder coating in manufacturing processes (example: lawn mowers, truck bumpers, car steel wheels, car trailer hitches) is that the manufacturer avoids a lot of environmental regulations associated with use of solvents and thinners. Long-term durability and rust resistance isn't really improved. If you like your powder coated frames, good deal, but, like painted ones, they're not bulletproof.
CroMo Mike is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 04:56 PM
  #23  
simmonsgc
Senior Member
 
simmonsgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NC High Country
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by etherhuffer View Post
There is one slight drawback to powdercoat. If you have any engraved logos, like the top of my fork crown where it has molded in "Fuji" then paint looks better. Powder tends to fill in the lettering so you can't see it. If I had a cool rare bike with lots of logo work I would use paint.
Hmmmm, I dunno. Depends on who applies the powdercoat.

simmonsgc is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 05:38 PM
  #24  
etherhuffer
Senior Member
 
etherhuffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Seattle
Posts: 812

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Trucker,81 Fuji Gran Tour SE, 83 Fuji S12S LTD, Voyageur 11.8 chrome, Raleigh R300 Touring, Voyageur 11.8

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by simmonsgc View Post
Hmmmm, I dunno. Depends on who applies the powdercoat.

It seems to me not all powdercoaters and powders are the same. The person above with the Trek photo shows that. His is far better than mine. Like paint, the running of hot liquid coatings is likely variable. Anyone know the base chemical of powdercoat?
etherhuffer is offline  
Old 12-10-13, 05:40 PM
  #25  
pfaustus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 115

Bikes: 1980 Motobecane Super Touring, 1980? Trek 620, 1964 Dunelt, 1991 Specialized Hardrock Comp, 80's Peugeot Vagabond, '74 Raleigh Super Course

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I didn't realize that power coating was baked at 400 degrees. That is sufficient to temper hardened steel. That leaves as questions, however, whether the frame is hardened steel or whether it has already been tempered.
pfaustus is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.