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putting longer cages on short cage nuovo and super record rear derailleurs...

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putting longer cages on short cage nuovo and super record rear derailleurs...

Old 05-18-14, 01:23 PM
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Heatherbikes
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putting longer cages on short cage nuovo and super record rear derailleurs...

Unexpectedly, I was given an mid 80's bianchi with nuovo record, and a later generation super record rear derailleur! I have been looking for a campagnolo rear derailleur, preferably medium or long cage, but kept missing out on ebay auctions, or afraid to spend too much on something used. The gifter said that the super record short cage will go up to 28T, but the nuovo record does not as I tried. I know you can change cages. One bikeforums thread comment said that you could switch from small to medium, but not to long cage. Is this true or dependent on the model/year? I read another thread where people put campy rally long cages on their nuovo rear derailleurs that were short. I have read that medium cage 72mm has chain wrap of 34t, long cage 39T. Not sure if that is the 'official' max or if they can go any further.
Is this doable, or a painful sort of hunting for cages and hope it works? Will only campagnolo cages work, would they be specific to years or models, or can cages from other component manufacturers work?

Last edited by Heatherbikes; 05-18-14 at 01:26 PM. Reason: forgot a detail.
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Old 05-18-14, 01:38 PM
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Member @HenryIII had a collective research project going on here, tracing the various parameters needed in a thread, with a few people chiming in with DIY or semi-DIY long cages from BITD. In the end, he wound up lasercutting a few of his own, I don't know if he still has any.
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Old 05-18-14, 02:05 PM
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You need these from Soma:

Soma Nuova Retro Derailleur Cage Plates
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Old 05-18-14, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Heatherbikes View Post
Unexpectedly, I was given an mid 80's bianchi with nuovo record, and a later generation super record rear derailleur! I have been looking for a campagnolo rear derailleur, preferably medium or long cage, but kept missing out on ebay auctions, or afraid to spend too much on something used. The gifter said that the super record short cage will go up to 28T, but the nuovo record does not as I tried. I know you can change cages. One bikeforums thread comment said that you could switch from small to medium, but not to long cage. Is this true or dependent on the model/year? I read another thread where people put campy rally long cages on their nuovo rear derailleurs that were short. I have read that medium cage 72mm has chain wrap of 34t, long cage 39T. Not sure if that is the 'official' max or if they can go any further.
Is this doable, or a painful sort of hunting for cages and hope it works? Will only campagnolo cages work, would they be specific to years or models, or can cages from other component manufacturers work?
I got a set from HenryIII that I have never used, send me a PM if you want them.
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Old 05-18-14, 02:07 PM
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Soma sells what you need:

Soma Nuova Retro Derailleur Cage Plates
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Old 05-18-14, 02:31 PM
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The SR ought to handle 28t with no problem, and some folks have run 30t and even 32t with them. You can often get an NR to work with 28t by sliding the wheel back in the dropout-- this gives the upper jockey wheel a little extra room to clear the large FW cogs.
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Old 05-18-14, 03:27 PM
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"...but the nuovo record does not as I tried"…

I'm currently shifting 28 teeth with a Nuovo Record derailleur on one of my bikes. This one.
Stated capacity says 26, but you can get away with 28 if you're careful.


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Old 05-18-14, 05:47 PM
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Are you confusing chain wrap capacity with max cog size? They are two completely different things.

Small and medium NR cages? That's a new one on me.
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Old 05-18-14, 06:43 PM
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Or you could make your own, like Spence Wolf did back in the 60s...

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Old 05-18-14, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
"...but the nuovo record does not as I tried"…

I'm currently shifting 28 teeth with a Nuovo Record derailleur on one of my bikes. This one.
Stated capacity says 26, but you can get away with 28 if you're careful.


Wow, that is a sharp looking bike.
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Old 05-19-14, 02:32 PM
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Okay I understand, that chain wrap and max cog are not necessarily the same-I sort of thought they were, and dependent on chainrings, individual derailleur etc. I know the manufacturers tend to be overcautious. So, the NR and SR derailleur bodies can go to a long cage or at least sort of long? Thanks for pointing out the Soma cage plate, would never have thought to look there. Would the Soma be able to handle a longer cog given a 38t chain wrap and advertised 32t max? Does anyone use them?
The NR rear derailleur would not reach the 28t on the bicycle, and given the chainrings on the crank, I will need a larger rear cog.
Thanks, will inquire about the Henry III plates as well.
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Old 05-19-14, 06:45 PM
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I have standard, Super Record and Rally cages for my Nuovo record derailer. They're all in a drawer because I don't like the way they shift on the 14/28 freewheel that I use on all of my bikes. You have to overshift and then readjust and I hate that. The only early derailers that shift well on wider range freewheels that I've tried are Suntours and Huret Duopar.

If you want nice shifting over a wide range, you have to either go Suntour or a derailer made after Suntour's patent on the slant parallelogram expired. My best shifting long cage derailers are a Shimano 6500 GS, a Shimano XT from the late nineties and a Sachs /Huret from the same period.
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Old 05-19-14, 06:51 PM
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My best-shifting vintage set-up --by far-- is a Huret Jubile short-cage on a Shimano 14-28 ramped freewheel. I think the freewheel makes all the difference.
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Old 05-20-14, 12:29 AM
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i currently have nr derailleurs pulling chains up to a 28t cog on three bikes, no problem. all the wheels are in the center position in the drops (not all the way back). one freewheel is a new and cheap 6-speed sunrace. the other two are 5-speed ird freewheels, also rather new. all are 14-28t.

i had to play with chain length for my latest build to ensure the chain would pull the pulley wheels far enough away from the big freewheel cogs to clear the derailleur movement. other than that, they all work without a hitch.

i also fully overhauled the derailleurs, taking them completely apart and lubricating them appropriately.
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Old 05-20-14, 12:35 AM
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oh, you may also need to move the hub on the axle a little to the right, toward the derailleur, given you have plenty of room for the chain to clear the frame.

and also check the hanger alignment.

and wheel dish if you make any changes to the hub.
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Old 05-20-14, 06:52 PM
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Here is one of HenryIII's cages on a Nuovo Record, a pic I've posted before. I've been running this for several years ever since I put the Masi on the street.



It was modeled after the Rally. I understand the Soma cage was modeled after the Rally also, but doesn't have the drillium.

I keep forgetting to count the FW teeth, but IIRC it is a 14-34 6-speed. It shifts well enough but is nowhere near as precise as a Suntour on a 14-28 6-speed. One down shift in particular it likes to skip a cog occasionally. I actually installed a 13T guide pulley to move the chain closer to the cogs and that helped. I suspect if the cogs were closer together it would do better. From what I hear the Rally wouldn't be much better! It is also noisy on bumps, the chain rattling in the cage, I believe.

Despite the drawbacks it works well enough, and it looks so danged cool! I run this RD and crank for style and I'm happy with those choices.
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Old 05-20-14, 11:22 PM
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Thanks to michael angelo I will be able to try the Henry III plates and see how it goes. Are they all drillium as in photo? 14-34, good to know!
Yes grand bois, I will take that into account, just trying to use what I have on a tight budget. It's the campagnolo thing! My modern 105 derailleur clunks away as did my various XT's. I would be into a sachs new success rear derailleur or more modern campy derailleur if the NR and SR are annoying. There are quite a few rear derailleurs(even suntour) around the house if all goes wrong. My husband will want the SR derailleur if I don't...
Yes, will definitely service them.
Many thanks.
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Old 05-21-14, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Wow, that is a sharp looking bike.
Thank you Bikemig!
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Old 05-21-14, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Heatherbikes View Post
Are they all drillium as in photo? 14-34, good to know!
All drillium? I guess so. Mine is the only one I've seen. In pics the Soma cage appears to be smoother with rounded edges, less of an industrial look.

As for gearing, I'm running a NR crank (I guess the arms are properly called just Record). With 144BCD the smallest ring commonly available is 42T. So I set this up with 47-42T rings for a half-step crossover. I keep considering jonwvara's triplizer though so I can run a smaller, lighter FW.
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Old 05-21-14, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
....I keep considering jonwvara's triplizer though so I can run a smaller, lighter FW.
Jim, just think how much faster you will be up the hills on the smaller, lighter freewheel!

Jon's tripilizer would be a great idea and if you bought one, you would be in a sense connected back to me in a double sort of way.

HenryIII used my Rally to design and produce his cage for the NR RD, and Jon used my TA triplizer to design and produce his Red Clover 144BCD Triplizer. We might say I'm a facilitator for RePop Parts.

Would this give me first right of refusal if you decide the sell the Masi?
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Old 05-21-14, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Jim, just think how much faster you will be up the hills on the smaller, lighter freewheel!
Why do think I'm considering it? I need all the help I can get!

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Jon's tripilizer would be a great idea and if you bought one, you would be in a sense connected back to me in a double sort of way.
...
Would this give me first right of refusal if you decide the sell the Masi?
You'd be connected again because I'd likely be wanting a different FW. When I finish the sew-up wheels for it (rims arrived yesterday, still need spokes) I may choose to gear it differently. Haven't decided yet what to do with the clincher wheels. Will probably keep them as alternates, in which case I'd need two FWs alike. Or move the current FW over and put those wheel on a different bike, none of which need good wheels right now.

Right of first refusal? Sure. FWIW, I have no plans to sell it and it won't fit you; it's a Masi-measure 56cm, I believe, a good fit for me but probably the smallest I'd want.
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Old 05-21-14, 08:56 AM
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The Merry Sales /SOMA one is interesting .. Been using the original Rally since New .. on one bike .. 50-40-24 triple crank up front..
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Old 05-21-14, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kroozer View Post
The SR ought to handle 28t with no problem, and some folks have run 30t and even 32t with them. You can often get an NR to work with 28t by sliding the wheel back in the dropout-- this gives the upper jockey wheel a little extra room to clear the large FW cogs.
Actually I've seen folks with up to 24t but don't think I've seen one of the SA cogs larger than 21t, I'd be cautious going to anything larger since you could blow out the internals by over-torquing the pawls or the gears. Where the wheel is located in the drops seems not to have any effect on shifting so long as you adjust the indicator using the method described on this page. The FW seems to need a little more care in adjustment than an AW but once done, rarely needs adjustment.
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Old 05-21-14, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
Here is one of HenryIII's cages on a Nuovo Record, a pic I've posted before. I've been running this for several years ever since I put the Masi on the street.

It was modeled after the Rally. I understand the Soma cage was modeled after the Rally also, but doesn't have the drillium.

I keep forgetting to count the FW teeth, but IIRC it is a 14-34 6-speed. It shifts well enough but is nowhere near as precise as a Suntour on a 14-28 6-speed. One down shift in particular it likes to skip a cog occasionally. I actually installed a 13T guide pulley to move the chain closer to the cogs and that helped. I suspect if the cogs were closer together it would do better. From what I hear the Rally wouldn't be much better! It is also noisy on bumps, the chain rattling in the cage, I believe.

Despite the drawbacks it works well enough, and it looks so danged cool! I run this RD and crank for style and I'm happy with those choices.
I don't think I have seen anyone use a 34t with a FW and I hope you're not using that with your tandem because you are probably going to blow out the sun and planet in the hub with all the torque being applied through the gears. Can you enlighten me on the chain rattle? It seems if you have your chain adjusted properly, you shouldn't really get any chainslap to speak of. Are you dropping the chain a fair bit?

Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
All drillium? I guess so. Mine is the only one I've seen. In pics the Soma cage appears to be smoother with rounded edges, less of an industrial look.

As for gearing, I'm running a NR crank (I guess the arms are properly called just Record). With 144BCD the smallest ring commonly available is 42T. So I set this up with 47-42T rings for a half-step crossover. I keep considering jonwvara's triplizer though so I can run a smaller, lighter FW.
About the only way you're going to get a lighter FW is if you find one with an alloy shell. They are not too difficult to find, and an AW will work, though the stamping will be incorrect.

Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
Why do think I'm considering it? I need all the help I can get!

You'd be connected again because I'd likely be wanting a different FW. When I finish the sew-up wheels for it (rims arrived yesterday, still need spokes) I may choose to gear it differently. Haven't decided yet what to do with the clincher wheels. Will probably keep them as alternates, in which case I'd need two FWs alike. Or move the current FW over and put those wheel on a different bike, none of which need good wheels right now.

Right of first refusal? Sure. FWIW, I have no plans to sell it and it won't fit you; it's a Masi-measure 56cm, I believe, a good fit for me but probably the smallest I'd want.
I think I may have a FW around (maybe two actually) if you are wanting a different one. I'd imagine a FW built into a tubular wheel will be a blast to ride!
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Old 05-21-14, 10:23 AM
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I would personally use a tripilizer instead of modifying the rear derailleur with a long cage. The small inner chainring will give you a full range of low gears, you will have smaller steps between freewheel cogs, and (personal preference) the bike will look better.

http://www.redclovercomponents.com/

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