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Problem removing crank set on 1950's bike (not cottered)

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Problem removing crank set on 1950's bike (not cottered)

Old 05-21-14, 06:31 PM
  #1  
Norgermish
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Problem removing crank set on 1950's bike (not cottered)

It has been quite a while since I posted on this bike. I have finally begun restoration but I am stuck on the cranks. The cranks are not threaded for removal so I have been gently using a gear puller but nothing is budging. There is a grease fitting on the frame above the bottom bracket and dust shields on the inner side of the cranks. I do want to keep this original and am worried I might break something trying to pull these cranks. Does anyone know how these come off? Are the pressed? The cap on the crank is threaded and screws onto the threads on the bottom bracket.


Thanks for any help,
Paul
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Old 05-21-14, 07:05 PM
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looks like you need a crank puller. you removed the nut from the bottom bracket spindle right? clean the threads with a pic & thread in the crank puller, turn the handle and they should pull right off.
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Old 05-21-14, 07:18 PM
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The photos are so small I can't tell much. Was there a bolt into the spindle, or a nut on the spindle? Is the inside ID of the crank arm threaded?
Off the top, either Kroil or a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone. Let it work a day or two and then try the puller, again. You need to be careful with the puller or you could damage things. A careful application of a Smith's Wrench, AKA gas wrench (heat) may also help.
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Old 05-21-14, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
The photos are so small I can't tell much. Was there a bolt into the spindle, or a nut on the spindle? Is the inside ID of the crank arm threaded?
Off the top, either Kroil or a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone. Let it work a day or two and then try the puller, again. You need to be careful with the puller or you could damage things. A careful application of a Smith's Wrench, AKA gas wrench (heat) may also help.
Thanks for the reply-Yes there is a nut on the spindle, The (nut) is actually a cap but has internal threads not external like most the screw on the spindle (pic attached).
no threads on the ID of the crank arm. I have a crank puller but it will not work on this.
I have soaked it for a couple days, put an automotive gear puller (you can see it in the pic) at the innermost part of the gear and applied slow pressure with heat. I did take it down to the local bike shop (good people)and the guy there wouldn't touch it...
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Old 05-21-14, 08:28 PM
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The crank threads have been stripped, just cut the crank off. It's toast.
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Old 05-21-14, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jiangshi View Post
The crank threads have been stripped, just cut the crank off. It's toast.
Thanks but the crank threads are not stripped, there never were threads on the ID of the cranks. I was a machinist for 30 years, there is no sign of stripped threads. This is the way it was made. They are steel cranks.
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Old 05-21-14, 08:39 PM
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Borrowing from old time lawn mower engine repair practice (for removing a flywheel from a tapered shaft), I would find a 1/2" diameter brass drift and stout hammer, and a friend to help. Use a propane torch to heat it from the outside to about 200 F, have the friend, wearing gloves, to hold the bike up horizontally a few inches from the floor, holding it up by the inner parts of the chainring with the end of the spindle facing up. Place the end of the drift squarely on the end of the spindle, and smack the drift smartly with the hammer. Using brass prevents damaging the spindle's threaded end. This technique was also used to remove a rear brake drum from a tapered axle shaft on 1930's and 40's cars. Sometimes it didn't work, so don't do damage by getting overly agressive with the hammer. Sometimes they used a large closed-end brass nut that was threaded onto the end of the shaft instead of using a drift, and hammered the end of the nut.
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Old 05-21-14, 09:29 PM
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An interesting bike. American? Did you get the other crank off? What did you soak it with? Do you have access to liquid nitrogen? I can't tell from the photos, is the spindle end square? I've never seen anything like it.
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Old 05-22-14, 02:32 AM
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CroMo Mike- Sounds like a good way to go about it. I have some tall brass nuts in the garage but they are 1/2 14 thread, as far as I can tell everything is metric thread with odd size 9 and 11 mm heads The closed end nuts would be similar to acorn nuts. I could probably come up with those from Grainger Supply but I'll dig up a brass drift and I do have a 2 lb brass hammer I made a 20 years back. Thanks for the ideas!!!!!

Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
An interesting bike. American? Did you get the other crank off? What did you soak it with? Do you have access to liquid nitrogen? I can't tell from the photos, is the spindle end square? I've never seen anything like it.
It is a German made bike, Hahn is the maker. Haven't removed either crank yet, I'm hoping to get the chainring side off first. I use acetone/vege oil mix for soaking but in really tough ones I use something called Mouse Milk which is getting hard to find because it uses whale oil in it. I have a couple bottles left from when I had my shop and then that's probably it. Yes the spindle end is square, I just don't know if it is tapered or just stuck from being on there for 60 odd years.
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Old 05-22-14, 04:39 AM
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I haven't seen anything like it either. The crank appears to be attached to something along the lines of a Thompson type bottom bracket, which is typical of a German bike of the 50s but I realize this isn't necessarily helpful. Could you give us better (bigger) photos? And of the left side crank as well? I'd consider the possibility that the left side arm is supposed to come off first, then the spindle will come out to the drive side with the drive side crank arm.

You can get matched pairs of wedges that you hammer in from both sides, between the crank arm and the frame, that might pop the arms off. Or they might break something. But I'm not sure this will be effectively different from the gear puller you already have.

Good luck!
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Old 05-22-14, 07:39 AM
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When using the closed-end nut, it needs to bottom out on the end of the shaft when you screw it on, so any striking is transmitted to the shaft end, not to the threads and not the crank arm. Might be something you have to custom-machine to fit this job. I'd just try the drift first.

I still have some of the big brass closed-end nuts we used on an early-50's Dodge truck back in the day.

An old trick we used on Briggs and Stratton flywheels was to loosen the flywheel nut and just back it off to where the end of the nut was flush with the end of the shaft. While prying under the flywheel (or someone lifted it), one sharp square-on rap with the hammer on the end of the shaft would break the flywheel loose without damaging the shaft or its threads. Hit it crooked and the threads would be boogered up, though.
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Old 05-22-14, 07:54 AM
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I'd move to the 'off-side' crank, and use a bearing splitter to back the crank so that the puller isn't pulling on the crank directly, if that makes sense.

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Old 05-22-14, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
I'd move to the 'off-side' crank, and use a bearing splitter to back the crank so that the puller isn't pulling on the crank directly, if that makes sense.
That did cross my mind, but because of the dust shields I can't really get behind the crank without damaging the shield.
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Old 05-22-14, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CroMo Mike View Post
An old trick we used on Briggs and Stratton flywheels was to loosen the flywheel nut and just back it off to where the end of the nut was flush with the end of the shaft. While prying under the flywheel (or someone lifted it), one sharp square-on rap with the hammer on the end of the shaft would break the flywheel loose without damaging the shaft or its threads. Hit it crooked and the threads would be boogered up, though.
Sounds like the same idea that we used to use on the old gas starter motors for the big diesels. I just wish I knew if this was actually tapered or just froze up. I'll get to it this weekend when I can get an extra pair of hands to hold it while I swing the hammer
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Old 05-22-14, 04:01 PM
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Old 05-22-14, 04:52 PM
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Yep, it would really help to know the shape of the spindle; square taper? splines? taper and key? I would bet on some kind of taper. Keep it soaked in Kroil or PBblaster till the weekend. Then perhaps a few rounds of heat and cold followed by the puller and light hammer blows on the puller shaft. No hurry.
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Old 05-22-14, 08:15 PM
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I'm wondering if you fixed your signature line if that baby would pop right off!

PS: I love it and have already passed it along.
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Old 05-22-14, 08:41 PM
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What kind of shape is the rest of the bike? Perhaps you can pump up the tires and ride it up some hills, and that will loosen the cranks up a little?
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Old 05-25-14, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
I'm wondering if you fixed your signature line if that baby would pop right off!
OK, ok signature line fixed and it worked, the crank is coming off slowwwwwwwly

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Old 05-27-14, 02:02 PM
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So I finally got the drive side crank off. The bottom bracket is another problem. It looks to be held together by a threaded bushing around the shaft but I cannot get that bushing to move. Any ideas on a way to get this bottom bracket apart? I still have a problem with removing the non drive side crank i.e., no place to really get a hold on it to break it loose from the bottom bracket shaft (still working on it). Here are a few photos of the drive side...
I was hoping to somehow get the bottom bracket out and work on pulling the other crank then...thanks for any advice
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Old 05-27-14, 04:09 PM
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That looks like where a locknut for the cone would be- but most locknuts have a flat to hold onto. Maybe it's missing the locknut and that's the cone. Ouch. Are you sure there are no holes for a pin wrench? You may have to just whack on it with a sharp cold chisel to get it to turn.

It looks very similar to a Thompson bottom bracket for a 2-piece crank. If you do manage to get it loose, then you don't need to remove the drive side crank- the axle will just slide out.
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Old 05-27-14, 04:52 PM
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Tough to tell in the pictures, but is that a washer on there that's covering the bearing cone, similar to the notched washer on one piece cranks?
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Old 05-27-14, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
That looks like where a locknut for the cone would be- but most locknuts have a flat to hold onto. Maybe it's missing the locknut and that's the cone. Ouch. Are you sure there are no holes for a pin wrench? You may have to just whack on it with a sharp cold chisel to get it to turn.

It looks very similar to a Thompson bottom bracket for a 2-piece crank. If you do manage to get it loose, then you don't need to remove the drive side crank- the axle will just slide out.
That's what I think it is, the locknut for the cone. There is nothing to grab it and get it to turn, no holes or flats. I did take an old pair of vice-grips and ground them down to get a grip on the outer part but I cannot get it to move. The material is very hard and the vice-grips just slide without biting. Even a chisel will not get a "grip" on it. Almost positive it is threaded though and not just a stuck washer. It is hard enough to be a bearing race but I do not think it is the race. The opposite crank is a tapered square but I have nothing to grab onto to pull the crank so I am hoping if I ever get the lock washer/nut off the bottom bracket will come apart.
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Old 05-28-14, 09:24 AM
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In Picture 1, on the left side there looks like a hole drilled into the edge of the round thing you need to unscrew (locknut, cone, whatever it is). Maybe that's the hole for a wacky offset pin wrench, or possibly a setscrew. I'd probe that little divot with a pick and see if it's a hole or a setscrew. Good luck unscrewing it if it's a setscrew- you'll need to make two right-angle screwdrivers to get it loose.
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Old 05-28-14, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
In Picture 1, on the left side there looks like a hole drilled into the edge of the round thing you need to unscrew (locknut, cone, whatever it is). Maybe that's the hole for a wacky offset pin wrench, or possibly a setscrew. I'd probe that little divot with a pick and see if it's a hole or a setscrew. Good luck unscrewing it if it's a setscrew- you'll need to make two right-angle screwdrivers to get it loose.
I looked and nothing there, the washer is only about 3/16" thick. I'm gonna take a break from this before I break something maybe try to make a jig to pull the other crank and see what's under that side.
Thanks
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