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-   -   Unique frame, NEED HELP TO IDENTIFY! (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/961205-unique-frame-need-help-identify.html)

verktyg 07-25-14 10:42 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It's definitely French but not a Gitane, Peugeot or Motobecane.

A lot of French bike shops had private label frames and bikes made for them during the 60s and 70s. It's most likely one of those frames. Either that or it was made by a small French "constructeur" (custom frame builder).

The short wheelbase and high BB indicates that it was a Criterium style frame. The handlng may be a little "twitchy" because of the tight geometry.

The forks have a long graceful rake that you don't often find on French bikes. They were mostly used on Brit bikes like Ron Coopers and so on.

That style of Reynolds decals came out in 1974 and they were used until the early 80s. The Simplex rear dropouts with adjuster screws date to the mid 70s (1975-76). They have the round "banjo" derailleur hanger for proprietary use with Simplex derailleurs (they can be modified to fit Campy style derailleurs or can be used with later Shimano, Suntour and even with later style Campy derailleurs if you tsp the mounting hole to M10x1). By the late 70s Simplex switched the de facto world standard Campy style derailleur hangers.

Old style Simplex dropout modified to use with Campy style derailleurs.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395282

A picture of the head tube badge would help.

Chas. verktyg

unworthy1 07-26-14 12:16 AM

So there ya go...it's why he gets the Big Bucks: MISTER Chas. !
and thanks for educating us!

gbi 07-26-14 07:57 AM

Hello Adrian122, Paloma was/is a French company whose products included/includes cars, motorcycles, mopeds, and bicycles. In the late 1950’s, or early 1960’s, they added the Europ brand to their line of products. I had heard, iirc, that the smaller Spanish framebuilder, Marotias, may have built some frames that were badged Paloma. I also heard that Marotias’ frames can look very French. (Could you take a close-up picture of the seatstay caps, it might help to identify the bikes maker.) Some features on your frame do resemble Marotias’ work. Were some Europ frames made by Marotias?, I don’t know. Please take the information I have given with a grain of salt, I‘m not sure it is all accurate.

Adrian122 07-26-14 09:29 PM

I think i'm getting close, I'm seeing some similarities. Forum Tonton Vélo ? Afficher le sujet - PALOMA 1964

IthaDan 07-26-14 10:09 PM

Flip your seat guts around.

Looks wonk.

verktyg 07-27-14 01:43 AM


Originally Posted by Adrian122 (Post 16977702)
I think i'm getting close, I'm seeing some similarities. Forum Tonton Vélo ? Afficher le sujet - PALOMA 1964

Those Palomas are really nice looking frames. They were most likely "constructeur built" custom made frames. The cosmetics are too nice production models.

Back in those days, most French towns had bike shops that made custom constructeur frames. Cities like Paris had many of those shops, the most famous being Rene Herse and Alex Singer.

I don't think that your frame is related to those Paloma bikes.

Chas. verktyg

verktyg 07-27-14 02:42 AM

6 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by gbi (Post 16976052)
... I had heard, iirc, that the smaller Spanish framebuilder, Marotias, may have built some frames that were badged Paloma. I also heard that Marotias’ frames can look very French. (Could you take a close-up picture of the seatstay caps, it might help to identify the bikes maker.) Some features on your frame do resemble Marotias’ work..

For a number of reasons it's not very likely that the frame was Spanish made.

First off, Zeus was the largest Spanish sporting bike maker. They used English language Reynolds 531 stickers not French. I assume that the other Spanish bike makers that used Reynolds tubing followed suit.

Also, Spanish made frames would most likely have Zeus dropouts which were Campy knock-offs. (See the reasons below)

From the 1950s through the mid 70s Simplex and Huret were strong competitors and made propriety dropouts designed to work only with their derailleurs. If you wanted or needed to replace your rear derailleur you had to buy a Simplex or Huret model.

By the mid 70s both companies gave up on their provincial, chauvinistic ideas and started making dropouts and derailleurs that interchanged with the de facto industry standard Campagnolo dropouts. Notice the derailleur stops on the Huret and Campy dropouts pictured below but not on the Simplex.

Simplex older style dropout

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395638

Huret old style dropout

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395639

Campy dropout

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395640

When you had a bike built, which many serious French riders did, you had to specify what brand of derailleurs you wanted to use and then you were stuck with that make.

Gitane Tour de France bikes made for the European market came with either Simplex or Huret derailleurs and matching dropouts. Same thing with many other French bike makers during that period.

Simplex dropouts could be modified to work with other brands of rear derailleurs but Huret dropouts were harder to modify.

Old style Simplex dropout modified for Campy and Japanese derailleurs

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395642

Strange modification of a Simplex dropouts to mount a Huret derailleur - probably for a Huret Jubilee???

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395643

Huret "Honeycomb" dropout used on 1974-76 Gitanes. Huret, Simplex, Campy and Japanese derailleurs could all be mounted on these dropouts.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=395644


Now the rest of the story...

Back in the days before the EU, the industrial countries in Western Europe (France, Italy, Germany, Spain, The UK and so on) had strong protective tariffs and high import duties on products made by competitor nations.

It would have been prohibitively expensive for a Spanish company to use French made Simplex dropouts which would also have required Simplex derailleurs. Spain would have wanted to protect Zeus who made dropouts and derailleurs...

We imported French made Bertin bikes to the US during the 1970s. It would have cost us $15 USD to have the frames made using Campy dropouts. Instead Bertin used Milremo dropouts which were identical but only cost us $6 USD extra!

As I mentioned above, the frame in question was probably custom built for a bike shop or chain of French bike shops by either a constructeur or a small frame building company.

This frame appears to have a geometry designed for Criterium racing. These kinds of frames had a high bottom bracket for pedaling through sharp corners and a short wheel base for stiffness and maneuverability. They were very popular in the UK but not as common in the rest of Europe.

Chas. verktyg

gbi 07-28-14 11:53 AM

There are similarities between the OP's bike and the Tonton velo bike's downtube graphics. They very well could of been created by the same art dept/graphic designer. As Verktyg points out, the frames do seem different. The Tonton velo bike pictured, and discussed, seems to support my suggestion that Marotias did make some Paloma badged frames, and that they do look a little French.

repechage 07-28-14 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by zukahn1 (Post 16968718)
Looking a bit closer based on how tight the tire wheel fit and brake fit is on this bike are for a vintage bike with 700's. I'm thinking it may have had 650 wheels originally not a big deal but make these one even more interesting.

Maybe not, the seat stay bridge has been "updated" to take a recessed mounting sort of.
Probably has typical early 70's clearances for a typical brake, typical reach 700c.
The fork bend is a bit unusual for an early 70's bike, not without precedent, just atypical.


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