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Murder mystery frame(..without the murder bit!)

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Murder mystery frame(..without the murder bit!)

Old 08-27-14, 11:08 AM
  #1  
vivvov
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Murder mystery frame(..without the murder bit!)

Hi All

Hopefully someone can solve this mystery (or add to it)..

I seem to have got hold of a..what feels like (weight in the hand wise) and sounds like (the bit where you "ping" the tubing) a nice frame...haven't weighed it yet..have to go in the shed and get my fish scales out (no pun intended)..haven't even measured it but it looks like a "goldilocks" frame..around 22,5.

Right..the only clues I have to the origin of the frame that it has a couple of nonsense looking decals saying K.W. Special...plus the guy I got it off said the guy he got it of said.....something like his father! built/got it from a shop on Lea Bridge Rd, London. That it was next to the 2rd Condor shop? (Apparently that was on Balls Pond Rd?). So he thought the original guy was a complete BSer.

I googled Lea Bridge Rd...Both Bates and Hetchins..but no curly stays so presuming not Hetchins. Not that it hasn't got unusual detailing...the forks construction..odd kind of two piece bridge affair where the brake hole is (technical!).

On top of this..the forks have a Campy headset provided by the guy I bought it off (thank you, nice touch) but it's only just screwed on by a couple of thread turns because some fool cut the fork stem too short (what!)..Anyone got a remedy bar new forks..is there a super slim headset out there???
Also apparently the inner diameter matches up to a good spec ..haven't got vernier calipers to confirm this though.

Anyway I would appreciate help in de mystifying this frame. Happy to add more details if requested.

Either way reckon it's soda blast, Phosphoric acid wipe,respray primer and rebuild(sit in my cupboard).

Thanks All in advance.

Neill
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Old 08-27-14, 11:15 AM
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Hi Neill,


Photos, lots of photos, detailed close ups of every junction end, bent, braze, braze on... in fact.. anywhere a torch touched we want to see it (that is everywhere basically)..
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Old 08-27-14, 11:16 AM
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Photos always help!

Neill
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Old 08-27-14, 11:18 AM
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Mystifying, eh? Well, let's have some pics, so we can think up a story.

Edit: thanks for the pics.
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Old 08-27-14, 11:19 AM
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..now I've up loaded..hell of a lot of detail I didn't mention..haven't shone a torch down the tubes yet.
Says simple (possibly simplex?) on one of the rear drop outs.
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Old 08-27-14, 11:24 AM
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Yup, Simplex. Looks like a well-made frame. No bells ringing yet, though.
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Old 08-27-14, 12:06 PM
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It looks like an Urago frame, the wrapped seatstays at least.

Look at the rear left dropout if there's the typical urago ID stamp : U followed by 2 numbers (ie U 58 for year 1958) and a serial number below.
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Old 08-27-14, 12:21 PM
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Thought the stripped stay motif at the top of the seat tube plus the holey fork design might get people spinning..it's about 1.9 kilo (just frame bare, no forks, no BB, no headset apparent from the bottom race)
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Old 08-27-14, 12:48 PM
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Few more photos..nothing on the drop outs except simplex..but three digit stampossibly 5 6 7 (although the 5 might be something else), underneath a possible single stamp but possibly just a mark, underneath that a 4 digit stamp: 6 or 5/3 or 7/unknown/1 (as far as I can make out pre soda blast).
Fork as 2 6 7 stamped on stem(...so 567 might well be 267 on BB).
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Old 08-27-14, 12:54 PM
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More I look at it, Derren Brown like, I see 6311....November 1963..

Thought the fork detail might jog folks...
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Old 08-27-14, 02:05 PM
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Best to start googling brands that you find have similar features. I found a Mercian and an Alcyon with similar stay cap treatments. It is a beautiful bike. Bates had a similar treatment on some models but was different enough the I ruled it out of my searches pretty fast.

https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/merciandk.html

https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...v-gillott.html

https://cycleops-into.blogspot.ca/2009/02/alcyon.html
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Old 08-27-14, 02:14 PM
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Yep..googling away
..amazing how time flies by googling "twin-plate styled fork crown" at the moment
..images..looking for the almost all the way round..but isn't..wrapped seat stays..came across Whitcomb but no K.W. and no twin-plate styled fork crowns.

Nice frame though..but will have to attempt some kind of headset remedial action to gain the couple of extra millimetres of depth on the cut too short forks, so that the top nut isn't "two threads depth" on..maybe not with the campag head set though.

Might jump over to the build section and post a query.

Thanks
Neill
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Old 08-27-14, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by vivvov View Post
Yep..googling away
..amazing how time flies by googling "twin-plate styled fork crown" at the moment
..images..looking for the almost all the way round..but isn't..wrapped seat stays..came across Whitcomb but no K.W. and no twin-plate styled fork crowns.

Nice frame though..but will have to attempt some kind of headset remedial action to gain the couple of extra millimetres of depth on the cut too short forks, so that the top nut isn't "two threads depth" on..maybe not with the campag head set though.

Might jump over to the build section and post a query.

Thanks
Neill
Whitcomb was the first brand I looked into and they did many different treatments over the years but I could not find similar style stays.

It is quite likely that given the age of the frame (1950s?) that the original headset was shorter in stack. Campagnolo nuovo record is around 40mm I believe, a gran sport or campagnolo pista headset is 34mm. So depending on what you have this may not present much of a problem. There are likely other more period correct options also (stronglight perhaps?)

I note also that the headlugs appear to have fillets, unless that is a characteristic of earlier lugs. I know very little about bicycles from this period.
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Old 08-27-14, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
Whitcomb was the first brand I looked into and they did many different treatments over the years but I could not find similar style stays.

It is quite likely that given the age of the frame (1950s?) that the original headset was shorter in stack. Campagnolo nuovo record is around 40mm I believe, a gran sport or campagnolo pista headset is 34mm. So depending on what you have this may not present much of a problem. There are likely other more period correct options also (stronglight perhaps?)

I note also that the headlugs appear to have fillets, unless that is a characteristic of earlier lugs. I know very little about bicycles from this period.
I was going to say the same thing. Stack height is probably lower on the original headset. I ran into that myself lately, when I put a 600 headset on my Cannondale M500. The thickness of the keyed washer is the difference between the top nut threading on or not. I am going to start looking for options on that soon. Maybe something modern with cartridge bearings. The 600 looked so good on it though.,,,,BD
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Old 08-28-14, 08:54 AM
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Folks over at the mechanics section came along with similar info...a whole table of similar info on headset size..near to top of the list was Shimano Sante..and by a stroke of luck I've a lovely Chas Roberts with a full Sante Groupset, it's tucked away in a basement in the same room as the boiler for safe keeping..have to temporarily try it out.
The mystery has thickened but I'll respray and build it up..will be a bit short for me but spot on for my OT or my brother. Then again, they don't really look after their bikes/are a danger to themselves..hum..hate them to mangle a nice bit of history.
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Old 08-28-14, 08:56 AM
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I'll post when I've soda blasted the frame and hopefully revealed the numbers on the BB..the first two digits of the 4 suggest 1950 or 1960.
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Old 08-28-14, 09:08 AM
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those look to be Belgian-made EKLA lugs, and with the Simplex dropouts might indicate a Continental frame, although EKLA were very popular with British builders, too. What's the BB threading? Looks like it once had an oil cup (or grease fitting) on the BB, plus a roller for the RD cable. Clearly a nice frame, what do the main tubes outer diameters measure?
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Old 08-29-14, 04:46 PM
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Think you might have it Unworthy1..googled this EKLA BB..it's got the threading and I think I can just see the roller detail.
Slightly less mysterious.
Neill
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Old 08-30-14, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by vivvov View Post
..amazing how time flies by googling "twin-plate styled fork crown" at the moment
Yes... I'm obsessed with "biplane" fork crowns. Yours is quite beautiful!
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Old 08-30-14, 07:14 AM
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BB shell width?
BB threading?
Seat tube OD?
Seat tube ID or seat post OD?
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Old 08-30-14, 09:19 AM
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Have to get some vernier calipers or similar for the ID OD stuff..but will check the threading..reading on the EKLA site (.) I came across that (guess granny and egg time)

"Brackets usually come in English, Italian and French seizes. Bracketwidth is 68mm for a French or English bracket, and 70mm for an Italian bracket. French and Italian brackets have a right-hand thread on both sides: Italian 36mm x 24 TPI and French 35mm x 1. The tube seizes for French brackets will be metric (28mm); English and Italian brackets will have Imperial seizes (28,6mm). Every now and then we find brackets with French seizes where the driveside is issued with a M35x1 left-hand threading; this is often called Swiss. The cup on the drive-side (right) should be fixed; the bearings are adjusted on the left side of the bracket. English brackets always have a lefthanded thread on the driveside 1.370" x 24 TPI; this should be preffered if you have a choice. In the fifties and sixties there were English 3-speed bikes made by Raleigh, Humber etc.: with a 71 or 76mm bracketwidth and a 26 instead of a 24 TPI thread. It can be hard to find parts."

All new to me though..so I'll be checking and posting back.


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Old 08-30-14, 09:20 AM
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Quotes from

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Old 08-30-14, 09:24 AM
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Quotes from..weird won't let me cut paste site..
.
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Old 08-30-14, 09:25 AM
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velofilie.nl/frameparts
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Old 08-30-14, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by vivvov View Post
velofilie.nl/frameparts
I'll try to paste a link, great info in this site, BTW, but this is in Dutch so you'll have to select English or use a translation program:
frame delen
All that info above regarding BB sizes and threading is also correct, comprehensive and useful...memorize it, people.
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