Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Raleigh Professional Mk. IV color woes

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Raleigh Professional Mk. IV color woes

Old 09-21-14, 12:25 PM
  #1  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
Raleigh Professional Mk. IV color woes

I am restoring my dad’s ’73 Raleigh Pro Mk.IV. This is my only C&V project and I have been posting about it for some time.

This is a bicycle that is substantially defined by its color and therein lies the problem. There can be no deviation from the original colors, (blue mink/silver) yet, as far as I can find, those colors no longer exist in the automotive paint world*. I have been dealing with Sherwin-Williams Automotive Paint Centers as well as The Bicycle Stand in Long Beach, CA.

I am fortunate in that I found the lost can of blue paint I had (perfectly) color matched over a decade ago. This was in a catalyzed gloss urethane enamel. I never considered that the silver could not be matched. The problem is that the size of the metallic flake currently incorporated in automotive paints is too large. Sherwin-Williams has something like twelve grades of flake but even their finest grade (which is not available in California), is not fine enough. The silver on the Mk.IV is rather greyish. Even if the correct tone is achieved, the high reflectivity of the too-large metallic flake causes the silver to become too bright in anything other than subdued light.

There is a solution; I think. Testors is a company that produces paints for the hobby/model industry. In their Model Master series their color Steel (No.1780) is a perfect match. There is a problem though. From what I understand about today’s automotive painting process, the base, or color coat, is not catalyzed, but is covered in a clear coat, which is catalyzed. That clear coat is not compatible with the lacquer based enamel from Testors. Compounding the problem is the fact that the Testors paint is only offered in flat, not gloss.

The bike really needs to be clear-coated, not only to give gloss to the flat silver but also to protect the decals. So that is where I am right now, looking into clear coat options.

I hope others find this post useful. I welcome comments.


*The tech from Sherwin-Williams said they could match the blue in a water based paint but this was an offhand comment and since the frame had already been painted I did not pursue the matter. I know at one time there were others looking for that perfect Mk.IV color. I would be happy to look into it if there is interest. At least I now have the right color from which a match might be made.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-21-14, 02:29 PM
  #2  
bicyclridr4life
Bicyclerider4life
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Florida and Idaho
Posts: 1,075

Bikes: Huffy Beach Cruisers, Miami Sun Trike, Vertical PK7, KHS Montana Summit, Giant Cypress DX, Schwinn OCC Stingray

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Testors does make a gloss clear lacquer, which is compatible with their other paints.
You can put an ENAMEL clear over lacquer color paint, but NOT vice-versa. Just let the lacquer dry & "Set" first, usually a week or so.


For what it is worth, back in the day (pre mid 1980's?) automobiles came with either lacquer or enamel paint. They were not a base coat/clear coat deal.

I used to do auto body repair, back in the mid/late 70's.
__________________
"Whenever I see an adult riding a bicycle, I know there is hope for mankind." (H. G. Wells)

Last edited by bicyclridr4life; 09-21-14 at 02:33 PM.
bicyclridr4life is offline  
Old 09-21-14, 03:25 PM
  #3  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
For what it is worth, back in the day (pre mid 1980's?) automobiles came with either lacquer or enamel paint.

Yea, you thinned enamel with paint thinner and lacquer with, well, lacquer thinner. I have completely given up on keeping those terms straight. Testors calls it enamel but you thin it with lacquer thinner, or toluene, or their proprietary thinner (which I think is xylol). The Testors clear coat is on the short list; it’s not very glossy. It is not going to be as tough as modern catalyzed clear but should look more original.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-21-14, 07:59 PM
  #4  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 1,395

Bikes: 1975 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 511 Post(s)
Liked 118 Times in 78 Posts
The "flat" Testors paint will not be a problem if you overcoat it with clear gloss. If you do this, you will get a glossy version of their "steel" color. You should paint a sample and check it for color matching. Sometimes the appearance changes with a glossy overcoat.
Bad Lag is offline  
Old 09-21-14, 09:03 PM
  #5  
Frenchosa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If the paint is in rough shape and not saveable... how about getting new decals and painting it something original? Maybe your father's favorite color. It will be tough to get a match with out spending a fortune. This guy did.



Frenchosa is offline  
Old 09-21-14, 09:52 PM
  #6  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,611
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 655 Times in 509 Posts
Ditch the Sherwin-Williams.

Try PPG or Dupont.

I would try South Bay Paint on Vermont in Gardena.
repechage is offline  
Old 09-22-14, 05:36 AM
  #7  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
... if you had a perfect match put in a can before, you can do it again.
I presume you had it done at an automotive paint supplier?

Is this for a repaint? Or touch up?

If for a re-paint, go to an automotive paint supply specialist and have the colors matched by their computer.
You may only get close but it will be close enough and maybe the best you can do in this modern world. Remember, the paint on that bike is 40 years old. The pearl blue paint on my Frejus reputedly relied on powdered fish scales for the pearly effect!

If this is for touch up, well, you're going way too far.

Last edited by rootboy; 09-22-14 at 06:20 AM.
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-22-14, 10:30 AM
  #8  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
I probably should have been more explicit in describing the project rather than assuming others would remember previous posts (ridiculous). This is a full blown, bare steel, NOS restoration and yes, it is expensive. Like the man said “If any of us knew what we were getting into, nobody would do anything.” The chrome alone was $600.


I want to thank Frenchosa for the link to the Canadian restoration. I cannot tolerate compromises and this is both a blessing and a curse (maybe OCD?).


Also thanks to repechage for the resources. I will definitely look at them.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-22-14, 10:42 AM
  #9  
due ruote 
Senior Member
 
due ruote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,341
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 771 Post(s)
Liked 263 Times in 178 Posts
The problem is that the size of the metallic flake currently incorporated in automotive paints is too large. Sherwin-Williams has something like twelve grades of flake but even their finest grade (which is not available in California), is not fine enough. The silver on the Mk.IV is rather greyish. Even if the correct tone is achieved, the high reflectivity of the too-large metallic flake causes the silver to become too bright in anything other than subdued light.
Art Institute Glitter is a favorite choice for scrappers, stampers, quilters, crafters and artists

It sounds like you're past the color stage, but I'm posting this link anyway as it may prove helpful to future searchers.

This art glitter is good stuff, comes in a multitude of different colors/shades/hues and sizes ranging from flakes down to what essentially looks like powder. It can be mixed in paint. Because there are so many options and variables, the best approach would be to find a store that carries the line and go in person to make a selection to experiment with.
due ruote is offline  
Old 09-22-14, 11:25 AM
  #10  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
Interesting, Due Ruote. I was going to suggest this also. I have a couple of jars of something similar, one of which is an ultrafine silver powder. Might require some experimentation. But might be just the ticket for that hard to find match.
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 08:41 AM
  #11  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Ditch the Sherwin-Williams.

Try PPG or Dupont.

I would try South Bay Paint on Vermont in Gardena.
South Bay Paint provided a single stage urethane that was a match, thank you very much. I am going with single stage, in which the gloss is incorporated into the paint, as opposed to a base coat and a clear coat. This will leave the decals unprotected but will result in a more authentic look. AFAIK there was no clear coat over decals in the '70's.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 09:25 AM
  #12  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
On many bikes, there was no clear coat over the decals. And in most cases, they were true decals. Water slide or varnish fix type.
I presume the replacements you will be using are vinyl? Most vinyl stock used these days is much thicker than old water slide decal stock. In which case, I will recommend at least sealing the edges. They make an edge sealing pen for the sign maker's trade.
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 09:40 AM
  #13  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
On many bikes, there was no clear coat over the decals. And in most cases, they were true decals. Water slide or varnish fix type.
I presume the replacements you will be using are vinyl? Most vinyl stock used these days is much thicker than old water slide decal stock. In which case, I will recommend at least sealing the edges. They make an edge sealing pen for the sign maker's trade.
We are going with water-slides, impeccably reproduced by Gus Salmon.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 11:14 AM
  #14  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
Ah yes. Gus does great work. I guess you are aware then that Gus says his WS decals "must" be clear coated. At least, that is what he told me.

I think the thing is …is that the water slide paper stock used today, including by Gus, is much thinner than water slide stock from in the past. Not sure.
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 11:41 AM
  #15  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
Ah yes. Gus does great work. I guess you are aware then that Gus says his WS decals "must" be clear coated. At least, that is what he told me.

I think the thing is …is that the water slide paper stock used today, including by Gus, is much thinner than water slide stock from in the past. Not sure.
Hmmm... Well, I've got some spares so I will experiment. If I do have to clear-coat at least it won't be the modern method, where everything looks like it is under glass. Don't get me wrong, I love that look, it's just not what I am looking for in this case.

Last edited by shopco43; 09-30-14 at 11:46 AM.
shopco43 is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 02:35 PM
  #16  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
I don't blame you. I can stand that glass encased look on old bikes.

Can't wait to see this. When are you painting it?
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 02:53 PM
  #17  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,756
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 115 Times in 67 Posts
By the way, for what it's worth, I have a set of Gus' decals and was considering not clear coating them also. Despite Gus' recommendation. They are very thin and I'm not sure how well they'd hold up against abrasion but….

If I ever get around to spraying this frame...
rootboy is offline  
Old 09-30-14, 03:19 PM
  #18  
shopco43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
I don't blame you. I can stand that glass encased look on old bikes.

Can't wait to see this. When are you painting it?
It is being painted as we speak. You will be able to see it at The Bicycle Stand's website, or face book page. I will post a link when it's there. If you live in So Cal. the bike will be in the classic bike show at the Staples Velodrome on Nov. 1st.
shopco43 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
cyclingarri
Bicycle Mechanics
8
07-09-18 12:00 PM
MarkusForest
Classic & Vintage
12
04-29-16 08:27 PM
kenshireen
Road Cycling
4
08-19-13 03:32 PM
Apaulo
Classic & Vintage
18
03-01-12 09:09 PM
surreal
Classic & Vintage
12
12-27-10 04:41 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.