stealthcheetah

Hey @QuangVuong ! Anything further ever come of this? I just picked up an old track frame that I'm trying to identify and it seems to bear a few similarities, although there are plenty of differences too.

The guy I got it from actually posted the bike here when he got it in 2007. He'd been told it was a Ciocc, though Ciocc later disproved that.

Forgive the bad photo attaching, I've never used this forum to post.


Our fork crowns and dropouts look the same, and the rear bridges are similar, though there's no evidence of a logo on any of my lugs. There's a little insignia under the seat stays - it looks like a crosshair, with a J next to an L over an inverted L. This frame was definitely powdercoated though, so this marking and any potential others could be partially obscured by paint.

The frame is very light, with Nash lugs and a high pitched resonant ping when flicked. English BB with that three stripe cutout which probably led someone to believe it was a Ciocc at some point. I'm told lots of Italian makers used that cutout/BB cluster.

fietsbob

The cast BB's are sold separately to other builders.. I bought the same Cast BB separately then Built My own frame using It .. in the mid 70's , in Oregon.


But the term "Pantograph" is miss applied..

you have cast frame parts the logos are not cut into the cold metal

it was done in the wax that was used for making the casting investment, at the steel Foundary.


'Especial' is Spanish , may be a Spanish Built frame .. Individuals can build frames , Juan Pedro?

its the components that are needing a factory to make them affordably.

unworthy1

the BB shell is a Silva (Italian brand) product, those IC lugs look similar to some that Long Shen (Taiwan brand) sold as "Nash" models, but I have a memory that LS was copied them from a short-lived Italian brand. Can't recall what brand that may have been, perhaps Silva as well.
Correct that it's not a Ciocc, but as to who built it: could be anybody...looks decently made, tho.

stealthcheetah

the symbol appears again in the serial number, which reads 91 [symbol] 052101
symbol looks like a lowercase f in a circle.

Any ideas?

QuangVuong

No, I haven't been able to find out anything more about the frame.

I stripped the paint off, but no major identifiers underneath. Decent brazing which is mostly clean, only being messy around the BB shell.
















Fork was primed, and I didn't take any pics of it as a bare fork.

Anyway, since it's still unknown, I'll be painting it. Any ideas on a scheme?

KonAaron Snake 

It's a blank canvas, which is cool. Italian flag? Green with white panels and red trim/fill.

littlebeetle

+1.

The symbol clearly it's a Pinarello

rhm

Does anyone have a photo of a Pinarello with this stamp on the seat stay cap?

littlebeetle

I have found similar symbol on Pinarello road bike

rhm

But the Pinarello stamp is a G and a P, presumably to be read as GP, for Giovanni Pinarello. The stamp on OP's bike is clearly a J and a P.

Furthermore, the word under the JP is clearly "especial," which means "special" in Spanish. What does it mean in Italian? If it's a Pinarello, maybe it's a Spanish one... Juan Pinarello?

QuangVuong

Only reason why I initially thought it was Italian made was due to the fact that the BB was Italian threaded and it had SLX tubing. After finding out the word says especial, it probably is Spanish made.

It it is very very unlikely a Pinarello. The only thing similar is this cutout in the rear 'brake' bridge.

stealthcheetah

Looks great stripped. I'm going to do the same to this frame. How'd you do it? This one is pretty heavily powdercoated.
My latest hunch is Battaglin. The symbol that's partially obscured under the seatstay and in the serial on the BB looks a bit like their old logo.

QuangVuong

My frame had a fairly thick powder coat too. I gave the frame a quick sand with some really coarse paper then just applied paint stripper. Had to go over the frame twice to get all the paint off. After that, I cleaned up the areas where I got a local frame builder to repair(brazing air holes, and the two holes drilled in the DT for the bidon). Then primed, and got the base coat of paint on.
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zazenzach

I also highley doubt this is a Pinarello (or spanish for that matter).

I would bet the farm its Argetinian just based on all the little clues. Spanish is their primary language, and the majority of Argentines have italian ancestry (according to wikipedia, up to 60% of the population). Odds are its some smaller local builder who had an affinity for italian aesthetics and craftsmanship.

Well done on the paint job. Gold lug lining would look real nice too.

EDIT- I think especial is also portuguese, so it could also be from Brazil where theres also a fairly large italian minority.

QuangVuong

​Paint done.


Lovely blue-purple-red transition.
https://vimeo.com/119529585

noglider 

Oh my.

unworthy1

Phantastico!

QuangVuong

Done




This really shows off the transitions well. I dont even know what colour this bike it. Depending on the light, it could be a blue, purple or even a reddish colour.


Stronglight cranks polished up so nicely. But the chainring must be off true or something. The bolt holes dont line up 100% to the spider holes, so when I tigthen everything up and forcing the holes to align, the chainring doesnt run true. I might need to find another ring, maybe the aero one.


Old logo Cinelli Milano 65 bars and polished stem. Snapped the clamp bolt upon final tightening . But at least it didnt happen whilst riding.


Details matter. JP Especial filled in with white.


Pinarello cutouts are also filled in white.


And coloured in the Cinelli logo while Im at it.


Now, this was painted withpowdered paint pigments. These are powder pigments which you mix into a clear coat and spray onto a base colour, which was black for this frame. The bag arrived from the US and looked like a white powder with a purple sheen to it. It mixed into clearcoat like so


And sprayed over black to get the colour changing effect. I used maybe 1/5th of the bag, and have a lot left over.

gioscinelli 

@QuangVuong Wow! The bike looks like it's in motion with that gorgeous paint application with shifting colors! The tricolor on the C and the logo on the head tube is outstanding, it's your avatar I presume. Thank you for sharing!

QuangVuong

Yep, for unknown frames, I like to chuck on my QV logo. All painted, no decals.

TimmyT 

Nice job on the paint!

noglider 

That is so amazing. I hope you ride the bike!

cbresciani

Wow! That looks great, super job on the paint. Very Cool!!

unworthy1

I think this is an interesting theory that has value...not sure how far you'd get pursuing it but I'd second the idea of looking to Argentina for the roots of this frame...and much more of a bike building tradition there than in Brazil, but you might as well expand it to Brazil, as well.
Colombia might be another obvious place with a bike tradition to research, but it doesn't ring any bells among the well-known Colombian brands...I think Argentina has the best prospects.

zazenzach

love everything about this. you did really well on the paint.