Soundtallica

Hi all,

I was thinking of upgrading from my GT Tequesta (Tange MTB Triple butted tubing) to a lighter, but still steel and vintage, frame. Doing some research I've found that heat treated tubing such as Tange Prestige or True Temper Platinum OX are the way to go. Does anyone know on average how much less these frames made of higher end steel would weigh compared to something like the Tequesta that's made with normal butted cromo? Do they ride any different? And does anyone have a weight on a vintage steel Stumpjumper frame, since there are a couple on the local Craigslist for cheap?

Yes, I know that it depends on the way the frame is built as well, but I'm looking for a ballpark estimate only. And before you bash me saying it's pointless to worry about a few pounds, I'm only considering this because vintage MTBs are cheap and I'm not only after the weight, I'm after the ride quality too.

frantik

Tange MTB tubing is ok. Prestige is slightly lighter but I'd guess at most you're going to drop at most a pound from the frame, probably less. I have a mtb made of Tange Prestige MTB tubing and it's fine, nothing amazing.

Before you look at the frame you should look at tire and wheel choice.. it's easier to drop a pound just by choosing lighter tires

bikemig 

I wouldn't sweat the difference between "plain vanilla) chrome moly and tange prestige. If there is something you don't like about the GT, then maybe you need something with a different geometry. Wheels have a bigger pay-off in terms of weight and performance. Here is are 2 discussions that involve some of the trade-offs:

The Velo ORANGE Blog: Steel is... steel?

Frame FAQs | SOMA Fabrications

Chombi

IIRC, Prestige was Tange's top of the line tubing in the mid to late 80's, pretty much their lightest tubeset, Isn't it heat treated like 753??

bikemig 

Yes, Soma has a discussion of this in their FAQs as they use prestige. VO uses 4130 and has a discussion of why they chose 4130 steel.

fietsbob

Cubic inch of any steel weighs the same .. you need to learn the wall thickness of the tubes themselves to learn how much steel is used.

southpawboston

I thought that most chromoly formulations and treatments fall under the "4130" umbrella, whether it's Tange Prestige or any other brand and model. But I could be wrong.

All steel formulations weigh the same per unit volume. So a cubic foot of Tange prestige weighs the same as a cubic foot of gaspipe. The only relevance to weight is the diameter of the tubing and its wall thickness, and wall thickness is going to be specified by the relative strength of the formulation. Gaspipe is soft, so it needs to be thicker to keep its shape than Tange prestige, and that's why Tange prestige is going to be lighter than gaspipe. There is simply less steel in a bike made from Tange prestige as there is in bike made from gaspipe. Heat treatment also affects tube strength and therefore helps direct what thickness tubing is required for a given frame.

I'm going to guess that most mtb 4130 specs are pretty robust and heavy, despite being double or triple butted.

As the OP said, the concern is not only weight but also ride quality. You might not notice a 1/2 pound difference in frame weight between two otherwise identical bikes, but you might notice a big difference in how they ride. The heavier one may ride harsher and feel slow.

My wife's Soma has Tange Prestige tubing, and I think it's 9/6/9 but I could be wrong.

Tange triple butted MTB tubing is still pretty thick stuff- 1.2/9/1.2, I believe. As a reference for how thick that is, most high quality loaded touring rigs of the 80s had 9/6/9 or 1/7/1 tubing. So the mtb stuff is really heavy.

miamijim

It's lighter due to wall thickness. But it also rides nicer.

JohnDThompson 

As others have noted, mass-wise, steel is steel. A heat treated steel can be drawn thinner and still be strong enough to hold up; that's what makes a heat treated tube set lighter. But the thinness does affect the ride:the frame will feel springier and it will be more susceptible to dents. I found this chart comparing various Tange tube sets, including Prestige. Note that the oversize, MTB Prestige tube set is not listed. IIRC, its wall thicknesses were similar to those of Champion #2:


Source: Paterek Manual, 1st Edition

gaucho777 

Define normal. There are Tange catalogs on velobase with detailed specs and weights. A Tange Prestige tubeset is approx. 1978g per the 1988 catalog--or about 10-20% lighter than "normal" straight gauge tubing. Here's a link to the catalog pages; scroll down to Tange: VeloBase.com - Catalog Scans

FWIW, my Prestige-tubed Park Pre frame (sans fork) weighs in at 4.27-lbs. or 1937g.

DIMcyclist

I have a '90 Bridgestone RB-2 made from tri-butted Tange MTB and a Soma Smoothie made with double-butted Tange Prestige. The gruppo currently on my Soma was originally on my RB-2, so it gives me a good point of comparison, and I'd say they're very similar.

It doesn't suck, put it that way.

RobbieTunes

There are 17,000 possible trees that will grow from about any apple seed.
You have absolutely no way of knowing which type of apple will come from any seed.

Tubing + geometry + construction + components yields about the same diversity.
The reason tubing is mentioned in every bike review/test is only because it starts there.
If you are familiar enough/consistent enough with your builds, you can use that as a predictable foundation.
This is much easier, IMO, with road bikes, for which the components, while varied, are narrower in scope than MTB.

I find the MTB geometry/construction/components to be so diverse, that starting with the frame, for me, is inadequate.

Look at the "package." Heft the frame. Does it speak to you, and if so, what does it say?

The totality of it all is the final consequence.

DIMcyclist

+1

It should be noted that both frames I mentioned are 'road' bikes, and not MTBs. So...

southpawboston

My new L'Avecaise pre frame is 4.23 lb, and it's a 62cm frame.

dddd

I note that the Soma "Prestige" frames/forks that I have built up were not light.

The Prestige Ultralight or whatever it was called was a choice road bike tubing, used by builders like Landshark, Bianchi, etc., but was weight-eqiuivalent to some the lighter sets of normal 531 tubing. 753 would be lighter.

Heat-treating improved dent-resistance.

zazenzach

modern Prestige =/= vintage Prestige

The Tange Prestige on the Somas are a different animal from the high end 80's stuff. just compare the butting profiles.

bikemig 

If you have some technical data on this, I'd like to see it.

zazenzach

searchbar is your friend. not going to do the research for you.

You could start by going to google and typing in "site:bikeforums.net Tange Prestige"

bikemig 

Thanks for the help. I always like assertions that are backed up facts.

zazenzach

zazen: Actually, gravity on the planet Earth is 9.8 m/s2

bikemig: oh yeah? prove it!

zazen: i'm too lazy. go read some science books, or take a physics class.

bikemig: Thanks for the help. I always like assertions that are backed up facts.

bikemig 

I didn't say any of these things buddy other than the last one. I don't have a problem having a disagreement but you could have the courtesy of not making up statements that I didn't say.

zazenzach

What did I say you said that you say you didn't say?

bikemig 

I'm sorry that you have trouble remembering which statements you made up. But in any case, it would be courteous not to invent statements if you want to disagree with someone. Or not; it's your call.

My underlying question was pretty straightforward. If you have any evidence to back up your assertion that tange prestige used by Soma is very different than the vintage stuff, I'd love to see it. You could well be right.

zazenzach

I didn't make up any statements or claim you made any statements. I parodied an analogous situation to exemplify a point.


You are very, very lazy. In just a few short minutes, ive found multiple threads and off site sources confirming my statement.

Here's a hint, why dont you just go to Tange's website, download the tubing brochure, and compare it to the profiles in post #9 of this thread

bikemig 

Lots of people have no problem posting data on this site which makes it pretty useful. I guess you do. I appreciate the courtesy of a straightforward reply. I just wish you had done this a few thread earlier.