1simplexnut

hi folks ,
Have this rather scruffy Bertin frame which I intend to give a makeover . Trying to nail down the date . Hopefully you knowledgeable folks can help ?

specs as follows

120mm OLN
26.4 seat post diam
milremo dropouts
three top tube cable guides
dynamo ? tag on rear stay
no lever brazeons ( came with clamp on suntour)
english threaded bottom bracket and head set
numbers stamped on left rear dropout 56 (size?) , 8* (cant read second digit) and 8688 (serial no ? )
Any other info needed ?

rootboy 

been here yet?

Models | Bertin Classic Cycles

repechage

Later 70's to early 80's

This is one I might reference the component date codes on.

SuperLJ

Based on the Durifort tubes, generator tab, 120mm spacing, and English threading, I'm guessing it's an early to mid 1980s C31. Earlier than that would have lacked the braze-ons and had French threads, later Bertins had different graphics.

2 out of the 3 Bertins that I've owned have had the year of manufacture stamped on the left dropout, so I'll bet 8* is your answer.

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

SuperLJ is probably right about it being a C 31. They typically came without fenders or lights and yours appears to have had the stock steel crankset replaced with a Sugino Super Maxy which would never had been factory fitted as Bertin was the French Shimano distributor. The frames were full Durifort and tabbed for the generator and drilled for wiring (check the bottom of the lower head lug for drilling for internal wiring).

However, it might be a C 132 which was the same frame, but fully kitted with generator, lights and Bluemels fenders and a TA front rack. The lack of mounting marks on the generator tab makes it more probably a C 31.


I think SuperLJ is correct about the period as well. My 1982 catalogue shows decals just like yours. The wheels would have been Maillard or Milremo HF, QR on Mavic Module E 3 rims with Wolber Super Sport 700C x 25 gumwall tires. Good luck with the restoration.

1simplexnut

Aha! I wondered what the holes were for ! Mystery solved. Thanks everyone for your excellent input. Does that catalogue you have list the components?
Have been contemplating the following based on the spare parts I have in my stash

mafac racer brakes
stronglight 93d cranks with lyotard 460 pedals

wheels - was thinking about using a set of hf campag / mod E clincher rims
but reading Jims comments I might use a set of HF milremo/ fiamme tubs

Derailleurs - Have the choice of 80s NR campagnolo or a set of simplex non delrin

Question - Is it wrong to mix Italian and french components ? My 80s PX10 with NR campag would say not :-)

Any feedback on above appreciated

Thanks

1simplexnut

Indeed I have ! Isnt it a great site ! All seemed to be slightly different though from my frame .

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

Thanks for the compliment on the site. I will try and scan the catalogue pages for the C 31 and the C 132 add them here. When you say "makeover" I assume you mean make the bike rideable and safe for personal enjoyment. If so, mixing components is no big deal. Bertins were offered at a price point with all French or French/Milremo equipment and then often had other spec options like Shimano and Campy. As well, distributors and shops up specced and downspecced to suit their local needs so there is no need for be purist about equipment fitting. Your proposal of Stronglight, Lyotard, Mafac seems fine and the pre-existing HF Campy wheels give the period look. If you like or have Milremo kit, suit yourself in terms of preference. There is a full on 10 part restoration series on the site you might like to read as well.

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

The catalogue pages:

1simplexnut

Hi Jim , thanks for going to the effort of scanning those catalogue pages for me . Most informative .

I had a good read through your 10 part restoration and will probably go that way eventually . Currently just cleaning up the frame and will do a fit up of all the parts to make sure it all fits and looks right
I was presuming that head set was 1" because of japanese SR stem fitted . It appears that it is 25mm going by measurement of fork tube and checking nuts etc . Might have to use the sand paper trick to take off .2mm

Also when I started taking bottom bracket out found something strange. It had a *** nadex cartridge unit fitted and when I removed the non drive cup the rest of the unit just spun around in bottom bracket tube without coming out .
Had me puzzled ? Finally decided to give spindel a bit of a tap with a soft faced hammer ( not hard ) and the unit started moving .
I had a good hard look at threads in bottom bracket tube and they look ok .
Anyway I guess there is a question for you ?

1..... Is it possible the thread on the alloy cartridge unit had flogged out ?
2......Could the bottom bracket unit thread be completely wrong ? english put in a french thread ? yikes
3......What thread is it likely to be if headset is 25x1

Any thoughts/ suggestions would be most welcome

juvela

a question for all of the Andy experts -

am wondering about this pastel pinkish colour. do you think it looked like that ex-works or was it originally a reddish hue that has been faded by uv exposure? have had some reddish flambouyants come through which were clearly very faded.

thanks for your thoughts.

repechage

Would not be the first French thread bottom bracket shell assaulted by an English thread bottom bracket.
French stuff is not easy to find sometimes, so when time is short...

Look at the bottom bracket threading especially the drive side inside the shell to see what had happened, English taps may have been employed.

rootboy 

Just a guess but, I suspect that looks pretty close to how it looked originally. Except a bit faded. Similar color to the mid 70's Moto Le Champion. It's a pretty color. I'll bet some light rubbing or polishing compound would bring it out pretty well.

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

It's possible the BB was re-threaded, or that they just jammed in an English one cutting new threads in the Nadex, or that they used Italian. Best get a known cup and gently try it.
The SR stem may be French. I had one in a Peugeot. Check the SR diameter it should be 22 mm or slightly under for French or 22.2 for English. The pinkish colour is slightly faded but it is a standard 1980s Bertin factory applied colour. You might find the threading standard stamped into the lock nut of the headset as well. It would look like 25 x 1 for French metric threading.

1simplexnut

hi, unfortunately I think it is past polishing etc . See picture I just loaded

1simplexnut

Hi Jim

Again I thank you for your learned advice .!
Sure now the headset is 25mm. checked nut against 1" fork and definitely different .

As to the bottom bracket I think you are right about the nadex being jammed in . French thread is slightly bigger diam than english yes?
Also the nadex non drive side is held in with a nut that threads on to outside of cartridge allowing you to ignore the BB tube threading .

I am pretty sure I have a french BB in the parts pile so will have a dig and check .

Have just added picture of frame after degrease and it is pretty much toast in my opinion. Keen to do a repaint but now need to decide on colour ?
What other colours did they come in ?

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

My 82 catalogue shows gold, white, medium orange, metallic red, silver, darkish taupey-silver, medium metallic turquoise, metallic orange, medium silver-blue, red, the pinky rosey colour you have already, black and metallic mid-brown. These came with and without headtube and seattube contrasting panels and with and without chrome on forks and stays. If a colour appeals, let me know and I will scan the catalogue page so you can see it in colour.

1simplexnut

Jim ,

Found the attached picture of a frame that I quite liked the look of . Oddly enough was sold here in New Zealand recently . Apparently new old stock .
I quite like the colour and wondered if it was the same as "medium metallic turquoise" that you have in your catalogue . could you scan the page with that colour for me please .

Thanks in advance .

verktyg 

We imported Bertins into the US from 1975 until the early 80s. The frame pictured above is a 1977 or 1978 C132 Cyclotouriste model made with Durifort tubing with butted main tubes. The 1979 and later C132 models had Vitus 172 tubing, also with butted main tubes.



Here's my 1979 C132 on Flickr. This was a bike that we imported. I found it on eBay a few years ago:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57624283001949

This NZ C132 frame pictured above has Durifort butted main tubes with Durifort forks and stays.

Durifort, Vitus and Super Vitus tubing were produced by the French tube manufacturer Ateliers de la Rive. Up to the late 1970s Durifort was their economy tubing and was available with butted or straight gage main tubes. It was made from a steel like Tange Mangaloy, Columbus Aelle and other medium strength steels.

The original straight gage Durifort tubing had decals saying 888. In the late 70s they started making 788, 988, 999 and so on. The numbers indicated the tubing wall thicknesses of the main tubes: 7 = 0.7mm, 8 = 0.8mm and 9 = 0.9mm.

Vitus 172 tubing had similar wall thickness to Durifort but used a stronger alloy steel that was close to Reynolds, Columbus and 4130 Chromo steel in strength. Around 1980 they started making straight gage Vitus 172 main tubes which replaced Durifort straight gage tube sets.

Durifort and Vitus 172 butted tubing had similar wall thicknesses to heavy gage Columbus SP plus the heavy gage Reynolds 531 tubing that many French production bikes were made of during the 1970s. All things being equal - frame size, geometry etc. all these tubes will have the same riding feel.

There are a couple I things that I find curious about this frame: the brazed on brake cable guides on the top tube, the water bottle braze-ons and the white head tube panel???

verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

@bertinjim, @1simplexnut, @repechage,

Bertin used French headsets and BBs until at least 1980.... But, I have a 1982 Bertin C79 SSC made of Reynolds 531SL that has British threads and my 1985 Bertin Show bike has metric threads.



I've seen British BBs forced into French frames by ham fisted, hammer mechanics. The cup diameters and thread pitches are close but no cigar!

French 35mm x 1.0mm Pitch (1.37795" - 25.4" TPI)

British 1.370 - 24 TPI (34.79800 x 1.058mm Pitch)

As you can see above, British cups are slightly smaller diameter than French cups (Italian cups are 36mm x 24 TPI Bastardo threads so there's no way they can fit).

Almost all of the cups that I've measured were slightly under the published diameters. British adjustable cups can be screwed into a French BB about 4-5 turns before they start to bind up. That's where the ham fists come in!

Left hand threaded British fixed cups can be forced into a right hand threaded French BB with much effort. It usually ruins the French threads. Ignorance is not bliss!

BTW, Nitto stems are marked 22.2mm diameter but.... Almost all Nitto stems that I've measured were 22.1mm and will fit in many French steerers.

The original French (metric) steerers were spec'd at 22.0mm ID. A 22mm stem will not fit into a same size hole so a lot French stems were 21.9mm.

In reality many French steerers are slightly larger than 22.0mm (frequently it's been my luck that I've run into oversize stems and undersize steerers).

verktyg

Chas.

bertinjim 

1simplexnut-

The catalogue pages of Bertins painted some form of blue are below, including a cropped out photo of a C 31 from the first catalogue page I posted which looks very similar to the one Adrian shows on his Flying Wheel site in NZ. There is a fair bit of Bertin related information there as Bertins were prominent in the 50s to 70s in the NZ cycling scene.

verktyg 

Contrary to what a lot of folks interested in classic bikes may think, there were never any Bicycle Specification Police...

From the 1960s through the 1980s, catalogs put out by the European bicycle manufactures were just approximations of the real products they sold.

French components manufacturers where hard pressed to keep up with the demand for parts during the early 70s US Bike Boom. Substitutions were always the norm.

les spécifications sont sujettes à modification sans préavis "Specifcations subject to change without notificatiuon" (found at the bottom of most bike catalog spec sheets).

Peugeot was an exception during the late 1960s through 1970s. They billed their bikes as "All French" and had a lot of influence with Simplex, Mafac, Stronglight, Normandy/Atom/Maillard and a few other French component suppliers. Their catalog specs were close to the actual bikes they sold.

Now about Cycles Andre Bertin...

Bertin made a few bikes to the specs in their catalogs and even kept an inventory of some of them on hand but most large orders were built to the buyers specifications.

We imported Andre Bertin bikes from 1975 through the early 1980s. There were a number of bike shops and wholesalers who imported Bertins into North America from the 1950s through the 1980s:

Hans Ohrt in Beverly Hills, CA - Merry Sales in South San Francisco, CA - our company, World Champion Bicycles in Albuquerque, NM - Calgary Centre Street Bikes in Calgary, Alberta CA - Inertia in the Seattle area during the 1980s plus several others that I haven't verified yet.

The Bertins that we brought in were equipped with all French components. During the 1970s there was a market in the US for "all French" bikes vs. Japanese equipped or Japanese made bikes. Peugeot was a good example of this.

Bertin was the French importer for Shimano at that time. The folks at Bertin couldn't understand why we wanted All French bikes instead of ones equipped with the latest Shimano components (Bertin stopped making bikes in the 1990s and concentrated on wholesaling Milremo and Shimano products. In 2000, Shimano bought Cycles Andre Bertin and changed the name to Shimano France).

Our first order in 1975 was a 40' containers of mostly lower end C28 and C31 models plus a few C132 Cyclotouriste bikes and some C34 and C37 models (a few mixtes too).

The reason for the entry level models was that by 1975 there were very few lower priced European made bikes coming into the US - Peugeot, Motobecane and Raleigh being the big players. We had lots of sources for mid-range and premium priced bikes - we wanted to stick with European bikes for our less expensive offerings too.

We sold a lot of bikes to commuters and tourists. The Bertins were ideally suited for these customers. The C28s were made of light gage tubing, the C31s were the same except with Durifort forks and rear stays. The C132s had all Durifort frames with TA alloy crank, Milremo alloy bars and 700s alloy rims. These bikes had classic French frame geometry which made them smooth riding and great for touring or commuting.

For the first year or so, we communicated with Bertin by mail. Their English translations were unintelligible. We found out that the letters were written by a secretary who used a French-English dictionary for translations! We had them switch to French. I had a GF with a masters in French who worked in communications for a multinational company. After that we had no problems communicating with them (telephoning was not the proper way of communicating with French companies back then. We could use teletype or snail mail).

In those days, Bertin (plus much of France) closed down for the whole month of August. In the summer of 1976 we were waiting for a shipment of 2 containers of bikes and we needed to know if they got out before the end of July (late August and early September was our busiest time).

In desperation, we phoned Bertin direct. The plant was closed but fortunately Andre Bertin's son Dominik Bertin was in the office working. Both Dominik Bertin and his brother spoke perfect Oxford English! After that we spoke with them on a regular basis.

As I mentioned above, most Bertins were made to order. That's why there are so may variations and deviations from the catalog specs. For example, we had the generator tabs left off of the seat stays on our C28, C31 and C132 models.

We could specify just about anything component wise or tubing on our bikes except for lugs, paint and decals. They would just ignore our requests for any changes for those 3 items!

Bertin used decals from a number of different time periods in the same shipments regardless of the model or manufacturing year. In other words we would sometimes see 3 different decal styles in the same shipment.



On our second order we had Bertin use Durifort tubing and 700c alloy rims on the C31 bikes. The cost difference for all Durifort frames was only $5.00 USD additional. Same thing with the alloy rims +$5.00 for the pair.

By 1976 many mid range Japanese bikes plus a few European bikes were coming with forged rear dropouts with integral derailleur hangers. Bertin and many outer European bikes were still using stamped steel dropouts.

I asked Bertin about putting Campy dropouts on our C31 and C132 bikes. They came back with an additional price of $15.00 per bike but said they could supply Milremo forged dropouts (their house accessory brand) for $6.00 instead. The Milremo dropouts were made by the same Italian company that made them for Campagnolo.



BTW, Milremo was a trademark shared by Andre Bertin in France and Ron Kitching in the UK. It was a contraction of MILan and San REMO. The Milan - San Remo is an early season classic race in Italy.

Back to Bertin catalogs. Bertin didn't make all of the bikes they marketed. During the US Bike Boom of the early 70s, Bertin had some entry level bikes produced by one of the big French private label bike makers, maybe Manufrance. Those bikes were pretty shoddy and gave Bertin a black eye in the US market.

Most Bertin made bikes that used unbranded, Durifort or Vitus tubing had these distinctive crimped seat stay caps (model C28 to 35 bikes plus C56 track bikes and others).



When Cycles Andre Bertin had a fire that destroyed their plant they sold some Belgian made bikes built by Andre Bertin's cousin located across the border in Belgium.

In addition, some models like the C70 amateur racing bikes may have been built by some one else. We brought in a few of those bikes plus some other similar models to check them out. Cosmetically they looked nice but the frames were made out of some kind of "tuyau pour le gaz" gas pipe tubing plus they had different seat stay tops than Bertin used on their bikes an different fork crowns. Also, the C70 frame geometry was quite different from other Bertins from that era - Steeper angles and straighter forks.

Seat stay tops:

Late 60s to early 80s C28-C35



Late 60s to early 80s C37 - I peeled the red, white and blue Tricolore decal off.



Late 70s C70



From the late 1960s to the late 1970s, Bertin generally didn't use serial numbers, or at least traceable ones on their frames.

In the late 70s the US CPSC (Consumer Protection Safety Commission) rules required that all bicycles sold in the US had to have traceable serial numbers so that may help in dating a Bertin. They usually stamped 2 numbers on the left rear dropout. One was the size measured from center to top: 56 = 56cm, 60= 60cm and so on. The second number if present could be one or two digits indicating the year of manufacture.

This is a 58cm frame made in 1978



A 57cm frame made in 1985



So, be cautious about using pictures and spec in the older European bike catalogs for determining age and model!


BTW, there's still a company producing bikes under the Bertin name - Bertin-Cycles s.a.r.l. located in Casablanca, Morocco.

My latest Bertin acquisition - an early 1990s frame made of Reynolds 501 tubing. I've named it "spot"!

This appears to be the original colors!



verktyg

Chas.

repechage

Yes, Bertin would do a custom spec for no up charge beyond the incremental changes desired. In 1974 Hans Ohrt ordered a special group of frames, the C37-A for Artisan. They were of the Reynolds 5/10 ga material and were to compete with Masi and Colnago. Handsome but not produced in the desired color, the foil graphics also held them back. They were also expensive.
They eventually sold but were not reordered.

bertinjim 

Chas-

Great job on the explanation. "Subject to change without notice..." seemed to be Bertin's motto for a while. I have a 1960s C 37 without a serial and a 1970s with only the frame size stamping but have seen dozens of photos with one or the other or both. Variability was the norm and Bertin was very accommodating in building batches to spec for small domestic shops and foreign importers as you described so well. The catalogues I have seen reflect the variability you described and the examples I posted for 1simplexnut from the 1982 catalogue have four photos and each photo has a different decal scheme. Obviously, what was in the catalogue was not always what was in the box when the shop opened it!

A clarification, please. Did your C 28s have Durifort main frames and high tensile elsewhere.

verktyg 

Thanks,

"Subject to change without notice...", We used to fill up the empty space in containers with parts and Milremo products. We'd to go through Bertin's Milremo catalog and order stuff - it was more like a price list with minimally detailed descriptions.

We ordered the items that we were familiar with like standard French replacement parts, tires, rims, components and so on. About 20% of our parts orders were for things that we bought out of curiosity.

Some of those items were great but we also received some really weird stuff that we had no use for. Many of the really neat items where never available for reorder! ("Subject to change without notice...")

We bought built up wheels from Bertin too. They cost us about $6.00 each with QR low flange Atom hubs, stainless spokes and 700c Super Champion Mod. 58 rims (or the same rims labeled Milremo).

We brought in boxed sets of MAFAC Racer brakes complete with calipers, levers, cables and all of the small parts. We sold them wholesale to other shops for $12.00 a set and made about 50% profit on them. No one bought them to use, we sold the complete sets for replacement parts!

100 meter spools of Sedis chains cost us less than $3.00 per chain when cut to size. Normandy 14-28 French thread freewheels came in wooden crates of 100 and cost us less than $3.00 each. we could afford to change the chains and freewheels on just about every bike that came into our shop for a tuneup (most of them skipped from running on the same FW sprockets without any lube)!


One of the reasons for the apparent discrepancies was the cost of publishing catalogs, especially in color. This was before the days of DTP (Desk Top Publishing) Everything was physical Cut and Paste. The cost of printing plates was exorbitant, especially when you throw in the photography expenses. Color was even more.

Companies reused their printing plates for years. That's why you see such variations. Also, I suspect that Bertin had stacks of different decals in their assembly area. Employees grabbed whatever they felt like using that day???

As far as "...what was in the box when the shop opened it", I assembled hundreds of Gitane Gran Sport entry level bikes in the early 70s. A 40' trailer would pull in with bike boxes stacked to the ceiling. They sold faster than we could unload and assemble them.

Those bikes came with MAFAC, Weinmann, Dia-Compe and occasionally Altenburger center pull brakes, also Weinmann 500 and Symetric side pulls; Simplex, Huret or Suntour derailleurs; at least 6 different kinds of hubs and so on!

The Bertins we got almost always had the components that we ordered. Sometimes we'd be surprised when Bertin upgraded some components at no extra cost to us but the whole order was uniformly equipped per each model.


Well... I seem to remember a few bikes that came in with Durifort main tubes but they were more likely C31s. I think that the C31s on our first order came that way. On the next order we had Bertin use Durifort forks and stays with standard main tubes on the C31s. That made more sense to us because lighter gage forks and stays are more important for a smooth ride than the main tubes.

Bertin probably sold them to other markets because any tubing sticker on a frame was a marketing ploy. In the early 70s lots of bikes came with brand name straight gage main tubes and gas pipe forks and stays.

Buyers had no idea of what hey were getting but the bike had a Reynolds 531 (or whatever) sticker on it!

Over time we brought in fewer C28s because the entry level market dried up for us. We may have had one order of them built with Durifort forks and stays. I know that by our second order of 1976 we had the C31s built with all Durifort frames. It was only $5.00 extra! That's when we switched to Milremo forged dropouts too.

By 1977, The few C28s we imported still had steel cottered cranks while the C31s came with the cast aluminum Stronglight TS cranks plus alloy rims. They all had Wolber W28 700c clinchers. They were great riding, long lasting tires. I still have a set that I bought in 1976 on one of my bikes. They have close to 7000 miles and still hanging in there!



BTW. the plain carbon steel tubes that Bertin used were lighter than what most other entry level bikes used so they had a smoother ride.


verktyg

Chas.