Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Re-sizing axle slot in fork

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Re-sizing axle slot in fork

Old 11-25-14, 10:27 AM
  #1  
jonwvara 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 80 Posts
Re-sizing axle slot in fork

I've trawled the Internet for an answer to the following, but without success, and so turn to the collective wisdom of the forum:

I'm putting together a winter singlespeed on a circa 1981 Fuji Sport 12 frame. This must have been the lowest-end derailleur-geared bike in the Fuji lineup. The hi-ten frame is decent enough, but had lowest-end components across the board, including steel rims, steel drop bars, and even a steel cotterless crankset--the first I've seen, I think. Decent Dia-Compe center-pull calipers, though.

Anyway, the original wheels, naturally, had bolt-on axles. I'm replacing them with a decent pair of alloy rims on Shimano hubs from a donor Nishiki International with a tiny hi-ten frame. But the solid bolt-on front axle that came with the Fuji is evidently 11/32 or some such, since the slots in the fork are just a bit small for the 9 mm axle on the quick-release Shimano hub to fit. I haven't got much experience with bolt-on wheels so I had never encountered that issue before. (The 10 mm rear, on the other hand, does fit the rear dropout.)

The solution, obviously, is to file the slots a little wider, but before I go at it freehand, I'm wondering if someone already knows a neat and reasonably precise method of re-sizing the slot. It seems to me that the best approach would be to find a 9 mm round file and work it the length of the slot on each side, but I'm not sure how easy it is to find a non-tapered 9 mm file.

If someone can clear this up for me I will add it to my list of things for which I will be thankful on Thursday.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com

"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash

Last edited by jonwvara; 11-25-14 at 10:48 AM.
jonwvara is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 10:41 AM
  #2  
Centaurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Pensacola FL
Posts: 134

Bikes: 1984 Raleigh Kodiak , KHS Sierra Something

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The fork is intended for use with a solid axle that has flats on it, making it thinner and fitting the slot. This kept the axle from rotating and loosening the nuts.

I would scribe lines on either side of the slot that would give you the desired width and use a flat file to open it up to the lines. It would help keep the slot centered.
Centaurious is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 10:46 AM
  #3  
Dfrost 
Senior Member
 
Dfrost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,608

Bikes: 87 Marinoni SLX Sports Tourer, 79 Miyata 912 by Gugificazione

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked 89 Times in 66 Posts
The fork slots in my Marinoni were just a tiny bit too tight for the "axle" on my Thule fork clamp roof rack, probably due to excess chrome plating on the fork tips. I used a small diameter grinding stone in my Dremel and ran it very lightly up and down the fork slots, stopping frequently to check the fit. Probably only removed a few thousands of an inch, and never did get down to bare steel, and I was careful to only work on the slot opening, not the base where the wheel axle rests. I first tried a round file, but that had no effect, again probably because of the chrome plating on the fork. Whatever you do, work slowly and check the fit frequently. A hand file will be more difficult to keep "square" to the slot.

Last edited by Dfrost; 11-25-14 at 11:08 AM.
Dfrost is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 10:49 AM
  #4  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 10,022

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, Rocky Mountain Cardiac, 196? Torpado Professional

Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 402 Times in 267 Posts
Alter a front axle or take a chance on screwing up a fork. For my money, I would and have simply files small flats on opposing sides of the axle. It only takes a few minutes, however; fitting the wheel into the drops does require that you line the flats up every time.
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 11:23 AM
  #5  
Oldpeddaller
Senior Member
 
Oldpeddaller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maidstone, Kent, England
Posts: 2,628

Bikes: 1970 Holdsworth Mistral, Vitus 979, Colnago Primavera, Corratec Hydracarbon, Massi MegaTeam, 1935 Claud Butler Super Velo, Carrera Virtuoso, Viner, 1953 Claud Butler Silver Jubilee, 1954 Holdsworth Typhoon, 1966 Claud Butler Olympic Road, 1982 Claud

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Alter a front axle or take a chance on screwing up a fork. For my money, I would and have simply files small flats on opposing sides of the axle. It only takes a few minutes, however; fitting the wheel into the drops does require that you line the flats up every time.
+1! Just file a flat each side of the axle on both sides of the hub. Just make sure the flats on the left side of the bike are parallel to those on the right!
Oldpeddaller is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 12:39 PM
  #6  
Eric S.
Senior Member
 
Eric S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 888

Bikes: '04 LeMond Buenos Aires, '82 Bianchi Nuova Racing, De Rosa SLX, Bridgestone MB-1, Guerciotti TSX, Torpado Aelle, LeMond Tourmalet 853, Bridgestone Radac

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 25 Posts
I built up a Torpado frame recently (got it for $50 on Craigslist!) and put a Nashbar carbon fork on it. The dropout slots were too narrow to fit a wheel in so I took a file to them. It was very unscientific, but it only took a few rounds before the wheel would fit. It sits straight in the fork and the bike tracks great.
Eric S. is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 12:54 PM
  #7  
fender1
Senior Member
 
fender1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Berwyn PA
Posts: 6,023

Bikes: I hate bikes!

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 16 Posts
I would use a wide, cold chisel and bend the drop out open a hair.
fender1 is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 02:23 PM
  #8  
Lascauxcaveman 
Senior Member
 
Lascauxcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Angeles, WA
Posts: 7,858

Bikes: A green one, "Ragleigh," or something.

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1568 Post(s)
Liked 428 Times in 251 Posts
I've done this modification using a Dremel and cut-off wheel to slice out a fine sliver of the dropout, then touch up the round part with a little Dremel grindstone. It was easier than I expected it to be and it turned out fine.
__________________
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Trek 400 ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Lascauxcaveman is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 03:54 PM
  #9  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 8,910

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 225 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1437 Post(s)
Liked 849 Times in 467 Posts
Just try and do better than this guy:

__________________
Wikkid Wrenching Widdim #63: Idle Burg
non-fixie is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 04:10 PM
  #10  
jonwvara 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Just try and do better than this guy:

Owww! My eyes!

That's what I'm trying to avoid, all right. Thanks for the good illustration of what happens when someone tries to reshape the rounded upper end of the slot with a flat file.

On the other hand, at least he didn't use a cold chisel.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com

"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
jonwvara is offline  
Old 11-25-14, 04:24 PM
  #11  
due ruote 
Senior Member
 
due ruote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,154
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 681 Post(s)
Liked 182 Times in 122 Posts
Originally Posted by Oldpeddaller View Post
+1! Just file a flat each side of the axle on both sides of the hub. Just make sure the flats on the left side of the bike are parallel to those on the right!
+2 I've done that as well.
due ruote is offline  
Old 11-29-14, 12:55 PM
  #12  
jonwvara 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 80 Posts
Okay, I guess I'm going with the idea of filing flats on the axle. I resisted that at first because I didn't want to end up with a special-purpose front wheel that I couldn't later put on another bike. But Shimano front axles are common enough that I can always install a new axle later if I need to use the same wheel on a different fork.

On the other hand, changing the fork slot would technically constitute a "drewing" of the frame. We're admittedly only talking about a bottom-of-the-barrel Fuji here, not a vintage Colnago, but hey, it's the principle that matters, right? I'd rather not set foot on that slippery moral slope.

In any event, it's kind of an interesting project for other reasons. I'll post some photos in a week or two, I hope.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com

"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
jonwvara is offline  
Old 11-29-14, 05:48 PM
  #13  
busdriver1959
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Sorry but filing the dropout doesn't count as drewing. Improving the frame so it'll take higher quality components is a good thing.
There isn't any risk of screwing it up unless you are the hamfist from post #9 . The amount you are talking about filing off is tiny.
busdriver1959 is offline  
Old 11-29-14, 07:03 PM
  #14  
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,444

Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

Mentioned: 488 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1716 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 133 Posts
Your odds of filing the axle wrong are as good or better than your odds of filing the fork wrong. The trick with filing the fork is to do all the filing on the lower side of the notches. That way the axle comes to rest on a factory-aligned edge even if you cut away different amounts on the two dropouts.

And don't worry about it. It's a bottom of the barrel Fuji. Not something to lose sleep over.
__________________
I put new leather on ruined saddles like Brooks, etc. You can reach me by private message.
rhm is offline  
Old 11-30-14, 07:30 AM
  #15  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 10,022

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, Rocky Mountain Cardiac, 196? Torpado Professional

Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 846 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 402 Times in 267 Posts
Sorry but filing the dropout doesn't count as drewing. Improving the frame so it'll take higher quality components is a good thing.
It does to me! And it is not a good thing, regardless of the rational applied. Again, my opinion.
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Old 11-30-14, 07:40 AM
  #16  
likebike23
Rides Majestic
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Westfield, MA
Posts: 1,357

Bikes: 1983 Univega Gran Turismo, 1970 Schwinn Super Sport, 2001 Univega Modo Vincere, Self-Built Nashbar Touring, 1974 Peugeot U08, 1974 Atala Grand Prix, 1986 Ross Mt. Hood, 80's Maruishi MT-18

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Filing the axle isn't going to be easy and could go wrong also. If you mess up the threads, you'll have a heck of a time getting the cones/locknuts on/off. I like rhm's technique, shouldn't be a difficult process at all.
likebike23 is offline  
Likes For likebike23:
Old 11-30-14, 08:55 AM
  #17  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 14,944

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1089 Post(s)
Liked 126 Times in 113 Posts
Filing the dropouts could go wrong or not, but filing the axle could create stress risers, leading to axle breakage. I don't see careful modification of the dropouts leading to a hazardous failure mode.

How many people have tried filing flats in an axle? Does the material matter? Does it matter if it's case-hardened?

I see a potential for breakage and injury, but I don't know if it's more likely than breakage of any front axle in this type of bike usage.
Road Fan is offline  
Likes For Road Fan:
Old 11-30-14, 10:08 AM
  #18  
jonwvara 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Filing the dropouts could go wrong or not, but filing the axle could create stress risers, leading to axle breakage. I don't see careful modification of the dropouts leading to a hazardous failure mode.

How many people have tried filing flats in an axle? Does the material matter? Does it matter if it's case-hardened?

I see a potential for breakage and injury, but I don't know if it's more likely than breakage of any front axle in this type of bike usage.
I had wondered about that, too. My seat-of-the-pants hunch is that breakage won't be a problem as long as there's no sharp "corner" where the filed flat meets the unfiled section. The material that's being removed on each side is only about the depth of the threads, and I wouldn't think that the threads themselves add much in the way of bending strength. In other words, it seems to me that a threaded tube wouldn't necessarily be stronger than an unthreaded tube of the root diameter as the threaded one. But what do I know? What do the engineers around here think?

Finally, filing the axle is going to be a lot easier than filing the dropouts, no question. It would be easy to make a simple fixture to ensure accuracy in filing the flats. And worst case, of course, once could always get a new axle and try again. With the fork you get one chance. I would probably attack the fork anyway if there were such a thing as a 9mm round file, but since there's not I'm leaning toward the axle approach unless someone convinces me that it's a bad idea.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com

"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
jonwvara is offline  
Old 11-30-14, 10:20 AM
  #19  
Wanderer
aka Phil Jungels
 
Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: North Aurora, IL
Posts: 8,149

Bikes: 08 Specialized Crosstrail Sport, 05 Sirrus Comp

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked 47 Times in 37 Posts
Just get a new axle, and take it to a machine shop. Have them take enuf off one side, to make it the thickness you want. Ypou end up with a very slightly "D" shaped axle, which should be no issue, especially since you won't get beyond the root of the threads....
Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-30-14, 12:19 PM
  #20  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,514

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 105 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 916 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 307 Times in 236 Posts
Originally Posted by busdriver1959 View Post
Sorry but filing the dropout doesn't count as drewing. Improving the frame so it'll take higher quality components is a good thing.
There isn't any risk of screwing it up unless you are the hamfist from post #9 . The amount you are talking about filing off is tiny.
The amount of metal truly is tiny as busdriver has said above.

I've done this to many, many frames, including several of my own, and have had no regrets.

The "key" is to massage the radius such that the wheel falls in with exactly the same brake caliper and fork-crown centering with each wheel installation, ...not hard to do!

Don't mess up your axle, per RHM's good point.

Also, it is somewhat likely that this fork's dropouts may be spaced at 96mm instead of 100, so at the very least you might want to remove a 1mm washer from each side of a better wheel's axle assembly to make wheel installation easier and to better maintain dropout parallelism, which affects the function of the quick release.

Honestly, I've often done this using only a small, sharp flat file, but using the technique of keeping the file's square edge moving laterally with each swipe so as to avoid any king of stress-concentration notching in the dropout.

Again, this is a simple task as long as you don't go heavy-handed in some way. A digital caliper might assist gauging your progress but is far from needed. A caliper can help remind you just how little metal actually needs removing.

It might also be useful to repeatedly blacken the working surface with a Sharpie as you work, to better see where the metal is being removed from, this if you have little experience massaging metal with a file.

In the final step, you'll need to get the axle settled in so as to have the rim centered between the fork blades, but confirm and re-confirm that the wheel settles in equally in both "directions" as a way to confirm that you are working with a perfectly dished (centered) wheel assembly.

I sometimes also will slightly bevel the dropout entry along the flat surfaces to assist with speedy wheel installation (increasingly important if the fork is spaced even slightly narrower than the axle over-locknut width.
dddd is offline  
Old 11-30-14, 03:00 PM
  #21  
jonwvara 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,192

Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 451 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
...It might also be useful to repeatedly blacken the working surface with a Sharpie as you work, to better see where the metal is being removed from, this if you have little experience massaging metal with a file.
That's a really good idea. I'll see if I can find a Sharpie in Prussian Blue--that might work better than black.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com

"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
jonwvara is offline  
Old 05-16-20, 04:31 AM
  #22  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 123 Times in 76 Posts
The proper way to file dropouts

Originally Posted by Oldpeddaller View Post
+1! Just file a flat each side of the axle on both sides of the hub. Just make sure the flats on the left side of the bike are parallel to those on the right!

a) file only one side; if rear, file the bottom side. This is so you keep the side the axle will bear on the same. If you're good enough to file all four surfaces and have them flat, square, and aligned then you don't need to read this.

b) mount the frame/fork so you have the flat of the side you are going to file parallel with another flat reflective surface. The surface has to be shiny and flat enough that you can compare the sheen you make as you file with the reference surface. I use the top face of the vice jaws. This helps you make a single flat across the whole dropout face, hopefully parallel..

c) check with a bare axle as you file - not just for go/no-go, but also for alignment (axle needs to be 90 degrees to the dropouts when you have filed BOTH of them).

d) go slowly, check often.


Of course it helps if you know how to use a file, which one for which part of the job, and have done this before.
oneclick is offline  
Old 05-16-20, 08:50 AM
  #23  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 25,419

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1084 Post(s)
Liked 975 Times in 614 Posts
Zombie thread. But it'd be interesting to hear what jonwvara ultimately did, and how it has held up over the last six years.

My money is "dropout slot modification," "went perfectly," and "no problems" on what he stated was a low-end Fuji that probably has stamped drops.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
InfiniteJester
Bicycle Mechanics
7
06-01-18 01:27 PM
Isaacchencool
Bicycle Mechanics
7
06-19-17 04:11 PM
eliott
Bicycle Mechanics
6
02-25-12 09:39 AM
amplify
Bicycle Mechanics
2
05-31-10 11:53 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.