Help to ID an old frame, please.
 

Any idea what this is?

70s italian frame with chrome lugs | frames, parts | Ottawa | Kijiji

Nervex Serie Legere lugs. Nice looking frame that's easily worth the asking price IMHO.

I believe I can make out ...IOTTI on the head badge. Guerciotti?

"could be made into really great fixed gear or cut up and made into art"

Would someone please rescue this frame?

I've made an offer.

An "offer"?
Hell I have that much in aluminum cans just sitting in my garage!

I was thinking it ends ....RLOTTI

Does it look like a bird on the headbadge (eagle, perhaps)?

No, I meant, I offered to buy it for his price...the seller hasn't gotten back to me.

Looking at it again, you're probably right.

It's a shame the seller took two pictures of the head badge, but neither one shows it head on so the whole name is visible. :(

looks just like an early 70's Garlatti. is that a circumferential crack on the downtube just behind the headlug?

John Nolan - search forum archives for "Garlatti" threads and you will recognise the resemblance. Garlatti bicycles were sold under other names such as Velocina for example.

Look up "Garlatti Badge" on Google Images, and the badge & headtube lugs are correct.

If that was a crack, the frame would be in really bad shape. I'm thinking more of a scratch or paint defect.

BINGO! You guys are good!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...psbf79e935.jpg http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...ps10fa809b.jpg

John Nolan -

build tip - if you get the frame and proceed to do a build it would be a good idea to do a dropout and tab alignment prior to beginning any assembly.

have seen two or three of these frames where the stamped gear hanger tab had failed. you could at least minimize the risk of this by doing the alignment check.

Looks like a crack in the down tube to me! I'd be very suspicious of either someone who knows nothing or a scammer!

If it's not a crack then it's a very nice old frame. Let us know.

The dropout are probably stamped steel Campy model 1010-1.

CORRECTION, They're Agrati dropouts, lugs, fork crown, headset and BB per Juvela's post below...

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=422652

verktyg :50:


Chas.

The seller hasn't replied to me—I did tell him I couldn't come to get it until Sunday, so he may be just holding off. I'm always surprised when sellers don't reply, but I guess that's just me.

I hadn't noticed that line in the downtime: if it is a crack it would be a pity.

Will let people know when, or rather, if I get to see it!

verktyg -

the dropouts are unmarked Agrati.

the whole bicycle could serve as a floor sample at the Agrati booth of a bicycle trade show such as Paris or Milan. frame is constructed of Agrati lugs, shell, crown, bridges, and ends. it is fitted with Agrati cottered chainset, headset etc.

Ya, I was suspecting that. Lazy and late at night. Think twice, write once... :o

The relief on the inside of the derailleur hanger was the give away.

Never had too much hands on with older Italian bikes. The frame is probably older that is seems, maybe 1950s???

verktyg :50:

Chas.

The lugs look very much like Nervex Serie Legere to me. Anyone have a catalog illustration of a similar looking Agrati lug?

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...psdef274c8.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...ps24c0f191.jpg

So, I picked it up today. It looks sound, no cracks.

I think it might have had an under-sized seat post for a while. The clamp is separate, but the slot just about touches at the top, and opens wider below. 26.4 is too loose, 26.8 doesn't fit, and I don't have a 25.6! A bit hard to measure the inside, since the pinch from the clamp means the tube interior varies.

Assuming I get a hold of a 26.6, what's the best way to re-shape the opening?

I'd gently pry it open with a screwdriver, then try your seat posts again.

verktyg -

you did just fine with the dropouts. most any of us would have thought just the same. they certainly do bear a strong resemblance to the campag sport. i would imagine that if we could stack a loose campag and agrati on top of each other the congruency would be close to 100%. the presence of the small hole in the agrati to accommodate the spring of a sport model derailleur gives a clue as to when they may have been designed...

wrt dating - suspect our example may be ca. 1973. afaik there seem to have been two importation periods for garlatti machines into the u.s. in each case only one model seems to have been brought in. there was one done in the early 1960's and one done in the early 1970's. more speculation on this below.

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scooper -

cannot agree with you more that the two lug patterns are quite similar. both agrati and nervex are firms of long standing and i have no idea which set came first. one could argue that one company copied the other but i have no guess as to which way that would go. if you look closely at the illustration you posted of the nervex lower head lug you will see that its "ears" point forward while those of the agrati on the garlatti point upward. there are some other small differences as well.

the agrati pattern employed on the garlatti is called ART. 000.8020/E/U "ROMA." the upper head lug is N. 000.8024. the lower head lug is N. 000.8023. the seat lug is N. 023.8059. the bottom bracket shell is N. 005.8057. the fork tips are N. 000.810.

suspect i was mistaken on the hs; now think it an ofmega pattern. iirc both firms did a hs of the pattern.


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wondering about garlatti -

afaik there have only been two importations of these machines into the united states. in each case only one model seems to have been brought in. this has always seemed a bit odd to me since most bicycle manufacturers offer multiple models and sometimes even require importers to "take the entire line." the two or three cycles from the early 1960's import that i have seen were all a deep blue colour and iirc 56cm c-t-t. they were fitted with cottered chainset, ambrosio i-beam stem and bar set, campag hubs, gran sport gears and universal brakes.

VeloBase.com - Component: Ambrosio (girder, vertical bolt)

VeloBase.com - Component: Campagnolo {pre-Nuovo Tipo, medium flange)

assenmacher has some good detail pictures of a deep blue frameset, unidentified as to model or year:

Garlatti - Assenmachers.com

does anyone know who the importers were for these products?

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john nolan -

if you would like to add dropout adjustable stops to the frame there are some bolt in ones done by algi (france) and maeda (japan).

if the seat tube is out of round and you lack a mandrel you can work it somewhat back by inserting the largest pillar that can be fitted and working it round. when this is done you can try going up one size. i keep a set of adjustable reamers in the shop for doing the last little bit to get them completely round again without taking away too much metal. perhaps you could get some assistance with this from a bicycle co-op.

best wishes with the build. :) the forum's collective knowledge is there to help if you should hit a snag. ;)

Thanks juvela. I managed to get a 26.8 post in there after some cleaning up, so that's more or less sorted. The front fork was a bit bent, and when I tried to re-space it for a more modern hub, I made matters worse, (argh!), so I'm now going to substitute a fully chromed Ishiwata fork I found at the co-op. Not period, but not glaring. I don't want to spend too much on the build, so I'll be digging through the parts bin in the basement and the co-op over the winter.

if the co-op has a park fork alignment jig that is your way to go first. well, at least for next time... ;)

No, sadly they don't have a jig, so I tried to do I myself.

hello john,

hope you are coming along well with the project.

wrt - fork: experience has taught me to be a bit of a nut on all matters related to alignment.

thought of two of the frame's dimensions you may wish to consider in your build planning.

these bikes came in built for 27" wheel with clearances for mudguards. if you should elect to run 700's the brake centres will be increased by four mm. the oem brakes were universal sport centrepull (economy version of the model 61) and had centres of 55.5mm front (caliper nr. 108) and 64mm rear (caliper nr. 109). their lower limits were 60mm front and 72mm rear.

the frames are designed with an old/traditional Italian geometry which includes a fairly long rear triangle and quite a low bottom bracket shell. had one come through badged as a Velocina with a shell of under 25cm/10 inch. this was with fully inflated tyres of the correct size and blades which were without deformation. shells this low mean one cannot pedal through corners and longer than standard crank arms are not practicable. running 700 wheels will lower the shell height by an additional four mm from what was original.

ran across this photo album of a complete machine which looks to date from somewhere around 1970:


http://twistcomm.com/Bikes/Garlatti/Garlatti.html

Thanks for the info and the photo reference.

Yes, I am hoping to run 700...hope it works out! I've found one Universal centrepull so far, and I have a couple of Peugeot branded centrepulls for the back if nothing else turns up. Haven't settled on cranks yet; it would be nice to have old cottered ones if I can find some.

My next puzzle is the finish: the frame is full of "character"; foil decals, a local bike license sticker, that sort of thing, so I don't want to re-paint. However, the top tube is pretty worn, and now that I've cleaned off the surface rust about half of it is close to bare metal. (I only used rust remover and a plastic pad, with a tiny bit of steel wool when there was rust with no paint nearby.) For most of the frame, I think I could just clearcoat and wax, but I'm not sure about the bare areas of the top tube. Even if I "matched" the colour it would look odd with the distressed finish on the rest of the bike. I may just clear coat and wax for now. I'm also thinking about using this "rust inhibitor":
RustOleum.com
You apply it "every six months" for outdoor items, and I can be removed with mineral spirits, so it could be just the thing for now.