lennert

Hi everyone,

Me and my girlfriend bought this bike this summer in Milaan,
but we're still not sure what it is,
we assume the frame is a cinelli but i cant find a serial number
(the seller strangely painted all the logo's yellow and putted pinarello decals on the bike)
but i cant no info on the fork, a friend said it could be a saronni but i doubt it

tnx for any help

Rocket-Sauce 

Not a Cinelli frame. Cinelli made BB shells and lugs available to any frame builder.

The clue lies in the fork crown, assuming the fork is original:


Nice frame, by the way.

unworthy1

^+1, and I have never seen that particular "S" panto before, but if the rest of the clues are reliable: SLX tubing, that "areo" shifter mount and unique stay cap treatment, it's a very good quality Italian frame...you done good!

Edit, a very long shot but possibly a Stelbel (made in Milano despite the non-Italian sounding name) since he had a slightly similar "S" on his forkcrowns, but he specialized in TT frames and used a unique crown on those...just clutching at straws I'm afraid...

Wulf

Definitely not a Cinelli. It looks like the fork crown has had some major (crude) resculpting done to it.

Chombi

Just a guess...... Somec??
Or Santini???

David Newton

Yes it is a very nicely built frame, likely built by a shop that is only known in its own region, never exported.
Did someone do a rough drill to the top tube for internal brake cabling? It is such a nice frame, it would be worth having grommets brazed at the rough holes to save the top tube from cracking later.

triplebutted

I had a Somec in the mid-80s and that don't look like the typeface. As someone else stated Cinelli made BB shells. Clues will also be in the rear brake bridge and the seatpost bolt area. And I don't recognize it in that bike.

fietsbob

I bought a Cinelli BB shell in the 70s when I built a frame .. But I Filed off their Logo before I used It.

lennert

Thanks for all the information so far. I'll add some more pictures of the details of the frame.

rhm

Excellent, that means OP can be pretty sure his frame isn't the one you made.

fietsbob

Ha

Mine's maroon Imron, and a Touring bike .

RobbieTunes 

Unknown to me, but I like the subtle curve at the top of the seat stays. I've seen those cutouts on other bikes (Cilo, for example).
There were/are (perhaps) several shops in Milan and Bussero that made frames. This is likely one of them. It's a nice one.

unworthy1

the brake bridge is another Cinelli frame bit, I have an early '90s Ciocc that uses that bridge, no help with the make but helps define the year...and we know that SLX (if the decal is true) wasn't offered before about '85.
I'd still be looking for more Stelbel examples if this were my frame...

The typical Saronni "S's" (there are 2 I have seen) are both quite different to this squared-off panto however, the font used for many of the decals uses a similar squared-off style...that just never made it into the panto AFAIK.

Bianchigirll 

Scopin? I am little dubious of the SLX decal simply because of its placement, but that is easy to confirm. It does look like a well made frame I amhuge fan of nice escargot type shifter mount. The cable routing brazeons are pretty nice too.

KonAaron Snake 

I had a Scapin and the engraving was different.

I feel like that same "s" engraving came up here before and we had this same discussion.

thinktubes 

+1

mechanicmatt

Maybe closer but I haven't seen anything in the examples of Stelbel frames that are similar to this.

Examples of Stelbel forks:

Stelbel by consiglio.manni, on Flickr

STELBEL Rekord by newobsolete, on Flickr

Stelbel (stellio Belletti) 1980/81 bicycle by VSB Vintage Speed Bicycles, on Flickr

mechanicmatt

Well I have spent the better part of my morning looking for this but to no avail. Beautiful frame, high end, no doubt and I would definitely repaint it if it were mine.

mechanicmatt

Love the work on the frame at this point.

unworthy1

Yeah I'm officially letting go of the Stelbel notion, but gotta be some obscure "S" brand and perhaps from Milano since it's where this was purchased. If that panto has come up before I have completely forgotten ever seeing it...maybe somebody with better braincells will have a flashback.

CrankyFranky

Whatever it is, it is a carefully made frame with nice braze-ons. (except the messed-up cable exit ferrule) The paint is in good shape - if you can get the rest of that hideous yellow off without messing up the paint under it nor the decals, and clean it up, it would be very presentable. Hopefully it fits either you or your girlfriend. Whoever built it, it's nice, and if it really is SLX, that would be a bonus and raise the value a bit more.

lennert

thanks a lot everyone!
its perfect for my girlfriend so i will clean it up and keep it original,

tnx

mechanicmatt

I went looking again and this came up. Closer to the "S" on the fork but not quite. Also I still haven't found or seen a Stelbel that has lugs but anyway...

Stelbel Inox 1988

gaucho777 

Maybe Scarpa? The "S" is a little different, but it does share the same distinctive square around it.

MauriceMoss

I was looking for some Somec related stuff and ran across this thread. Yes, it’s an oldy-moldy, but since the frame hasn’t been ID-ed yet, I thought I might resurrect it.


My thinking here is that the fork is not original to the frame.


I think @unworthy1’s sharp eye caught the Stelbel fork engraving spot on. @mechanicmatt also did some excellent digging and got very close to a match on the fork.


As Stelio Belletti started out TIG welding frames (and is the first Italian frame builder to do so), the mystery frame’s lugs rule him out as its builder though. The fork is very likely a Stelbel.


First off, here is a side-by side of the fork (the Stelbel one is from a 1987 Strada model you can find on Stelbel’s historic register):







Too many elements on the mystery frame match those of the frames built by Piero Serena (of Brescia) that I’m pretty sure our mystery frame came out of his shop.


Here are some examples (explanation and a minor details after the images):


Lug cutouts:





Internal cable routing that I've seen on a few Serena frames. Certainly looks home-drewed:





Stay end treatment:





Seat stay tops/seat cluster:


Serena used several styles over the years (when it comes to bottom bracket shells, seat clusters and lugs) and he built custom frames, both of which may explain differences from frame to frame. Serena’s output isn’t insignificant but it was lower than some of the other, more well known builders (like Losa or even Stelbel) so there aren’t a lot of examples online to use as reference).

A couple of items on the mystery frame are somewhat less common for Serena frames:

• Vast majority of them have bottom bracket shell cutouts, although I've seen a few that didn't.
• All but one frame of his that I’ve seen over the years sported Campagnolo dropouts. There was one that had dropouts that kinda looked like they might be Columbus but the pictures were too blurry to make a positive ID.

Everything else on this mystery frame points to Serena: seat cluster (which I’ve not seen on anyone else’s frames), the triangular lug cutouts (similar to those used by a lot of builders but slightly different), even the internal cable routing holes (which on some of the frames look a rough as on the mystery machine here). It's quite possible that both the blue paint and the tubing decal are original.