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Quasi-existential derailleur question

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Quasi-existential derailleur question

Old 01-23-15, 02:04 PM
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Quasi-existential derailleur question

So I'm working on a build and am having trouble deciding on a rear derailleur. The drivetrain with be a 1x8 with a hyperglide cassette, but I plan on using friction shifting with a Suntour barcon.

The question is: what would shift better in this context? An older non-indexed touring/MTB derailleur or a more modern indexed derailleur working in friction mode? I have a Shimano Deerhead and a Suntour arX in the bin that I am considering, unless a modern long cage RD would work better. Or would it all be the same with the friction shifter?
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Old 01-23-15, 02:21 PM
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Derailleurs themselves aren't "indexed", only the shifters. THey are specific to a given shifter in that only a match will move the derailleur the proper amount over the cogs. But with friction? It doesn't matter at all. The two derailleurs will require different amounts of shifter movement to shift, but you will learn that system n about 2 miles. After that it will never matter.

As far as Shimano Deerhead and Suntour arX goes, both will work. I'd go ARX because I have used them and they are sweet shifting derailleurs. I am currently using the ARX with a 52-42-28 front and 13-24 rear. Set up with enough chain to not self destruct on the big-big, I can use the 28 front with all but the top two cogs. That's a 33 tooth spread. You should have no issues as long as you keep the cassette to less than 11-44 and it physically fits inside the derailleur. (Put the ARX on and throw in the wheel with your biggest cassette before messing with cables. The answer will be obvious.)

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Old 01-23-15, 02:34 PM
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The decision may rest on your configuration. The larger the max cog, the more need of a longer cage derailleur; or triple crank.
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Old 01-23-15, 02:46 PM
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Shimano Z with the spring loaded pinch bolt arm.
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Old 01-23-15, 02:53 PM
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Max cog of 32t on the cassette I have, so the cage will need to be pretty long. Both the Deerhead and the arX should be able to handle that according to the specs.

Good points @79pmooney. I guess I should have said "indexed era" RD. I am wondering if anyone had any insight as to whether newer RDs would shift better than older friction-era RDs, or if the use of friction shifting makes them functionally the same.
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Old 01-23-15, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Shimano Z with the spring loaded pinch bolt arm.
Is that what MTBers refer to as a "clutch?" I'm not too worried about chain drop since I'll be using a chain guard.
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Old 01-23-15, 02:58 PM
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I'd expect either of those RDs to work fine. But in general it seems to me that RDs have improved since shifting became indexed and my friction-shifting bikes are a little more convenient to shift with the newer RDs than they were with the original ones. Part may be because of upper pulleys that have a bit of float so they settle into the correct position for quiet operation even if the shift is just a bit off.
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Old 01-23-15, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky View Post
Is that what MTBers refer to as a "clutch?" I'm not too worried about chain drop since I'll be using a chain guard.
This one: pinch bolt is attached to arm that moves if it's over loaded.

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Old 01-23-15, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
This one: pinch bolt is attached to arm that moves if it's over loaded.

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Old 01-23-15, 03:39 PM
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I would think the derailleur with the Slant Parallelogram would shift better.

The ARx FTW.
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Old 01-23-15, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky View Post
Is that what MTBers refer to as a "clutch?" I'm not too worried about chain drop since I'll be using a chain guard.
No, the clutch is on the cage pivot and helps maintain tension despite jangling from rear suspension movement and general bouncing around.

SFAIK all the derailleurs with this feature (Shimano Shadow, SRAM 1:1 or exact actuation ) take nearly double cable pull to the SIS compatible types. And thus you might not be able to move it thru the whole range with a 1980s friction shifter.
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Old 01-23-15, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Derailleurs themselves aren't "indexed", only the shifters. THey are specific to a given shifter in that only a match will move the derailleur the proper amount over the cogs. But with friction? It doesn't matter at all. The two derailleurs will require different amounts of shifter movement to shift, but you will learn that system n about 2 miles. After that it will never matter.

As far as Shimano Deerhead and Suntour arX goes, both will work. I'd go ARX because I have used them and they are sweet shifting derailleurs. I am currently using the ARX with a 52-42-28 front and 13-24 rear. Set up with enough chain to not self destruct on the big-big, I can use the 28 front with all but the top two cogs. That's a 33 tooth spread. You should have no issues as long as you keep the cassette to less than 11-44 and it physically fits inside the derailleur. (Put the ARX on and throw in the wheel with your biggest cassette before messing with cables. The answer will be obvious.)

Ben
I *think* the question that tovarisch @icepick_trotsky is getting at is 'would a derailleur that has had the benefits of technological advancements that made indexing possible shift better than derailleurs made before the acceptance of the technological advances that made indexing possible.'

As I mentioned before- after the adoption of the Slant Parallelogram- quality derailleurs are "quality." Anything Shimano (and any other maker) did may have been nice, but until SunTour's patent expired- the slant parallelogram geometry p0wned inline or drop or whatever parallelogram designs there were.

I seem to think that I can notice differences in the way different derailleurs shift- although I'm fully able to admit that most of what matters more is 'does it work good/does it look good/is it sufficiently "cool?".'

I actually don't have a bike with SIS indexing running on it. I've got a few Accushift bikes, and a friction running Accushift derailleur (and 2 friction SIS derailleurs). In what I've played around with that particular bike- I seem to like the action of the XC Pro more than I liked the Deore XT from roughly the same timeframe. The Disraeli Gears guy said:
With the XC Pro groupset SunTour tried to take the fight to Shimano by claiming the high ground above Deore XT. This derailleur is very well made, with a high gloss finish, sealed bearing pulley wheels and a solid business-like feel. As was de rigeur at the time, it has two sprung pivots and a slant parallelogram. It was an impressive piece of equipment...
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Old 01-23-15, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
I *think* the question that tovarisch @icepick_trotsky is getting at is 'would a derailleur that has had the benefits of technological advancements that made indexing possible shift better than derailleurs made before the acceptance of the technological advances that made indexing possible.'
This is the question I'm getting at. I think everyone has agreed that the Suntour would outshift the Shimano that I have, the remaining question is whether later derailleurs would offer any additional benefit when used with friction.
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Old 01-23-15, 04:31 PM
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I have similar setup and using deore xt, sram cassette...with super cheapy sun race thumb shifters the shifting is super easy and accurate.

you might want to consider a more modern mountain bike derailler for the range
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Old 01-23-15, 05:27 PM
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My experience with the more modern Shimano index capable derailleurs is that they have a lighter feel. The "Light Action" derailleurs that Miami Jim recommends are nice shifting derailleurs. If you pair them with the Shimano friction shifters that were ratcheting and part of the same group, it'll shift like butter. The Suntours also shift well, but feel a bit clunkier to me.
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Old 01-23-15, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky View Post
This is the question I'm getting at. I think everyone has agreed that the Suntour would outshift the Shimano that I have, the remaining question is whether later derailleurs would offer any additional benefit when used with friction.
You know, I seem to have a thing about mid 1980s bikes, but early 90s components.

Where I have used non-indexing era components- and replaced them with indexing era components, the reason has been more of a question of "fashion" than "function."

I'm sure there are many here with much more experience in this than me.

I think SIS's secret weapon for this is that "Centeron Guide Pulley." Where Accushift needed to be dead nutz on, SIS allowed for imprecision- and taking that into account would (in theory) make even a friction shifting system shift better- especially when combined with the slant parallelogram.

I don't know how much more technical advancements of a derailleur can change the quality of the shift- keeping the chain closer to the cogs and once it gets to the cogs, helping the teeth grab into the chain... There's advancements in chains and tooth profiles- but not specific to derailleurs.

The nicest, smoothest shifting setup I had was a newer SRAM chain+ Suntour Barcons>Sachs/Huret DuoPar>Maillard Helicomatic. No ****. The smoothest movement between gears- to the point I wasn't sure that I actually made the shift, until the change in pedaling resistance became apparent.

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