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Warning - don't use those old Mathauser brake pads/holders!

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Warning - don't use those old Mathauser brake pads/holders!

Old 02-19-15, 06:22 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I'm always kinda shocked to hear about people riding the death fork. The fork on my fat bike has been recalled, and I'm still riding it waiting for the replacement. But every time I hit a bump funny I cringe a little.
Funny you mention the death fork in a thread about dried epoxy. What about bonded aluminum forks like on a Vitus 979? I never hear of those spontaneously failing. I have a couple similar bonded aluminum forks (Tange Fusion fork on a Parkpre and an original alum fork on a Merlin). I hate the idea of a sudden fork failure, but I'm not rushing to replace either of those forks. Might change my mind if Vitus forks started failing but I've never heard of a single Vitus fork coming unbonded and there were many thousands of these made over a long period of time. Thoughts?
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Old 02-19-15, 06:22 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Hey, I'm using death pads on two bikes and a Viscount death fork on my Viscount. Maybe I should build up an all-death-components bike.
Do you have the death stem on there- throw on a Helicomatic and a Mountech for good measure.
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Old 02-19-15, 07:19 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by gaucho777 View Post
Funny you mention the death fork in a thread about dried epoxy. What about bonded aluminum forks like on a Vitus 979? I never hear of those spontaneously failing. I have a couple similar bonded aluminum forks (Tange Fusion fork on a Parkpre and an original alum fork on a Merlin). I hate the idea of a sudden fork failure, but I'm not rushing to replace either of those forks. Might change my mind if Vitus forks started failing but I've never heard of a single Vitus fork coming unbonded and there were many thousands of these made over a long period of time. Thoughts?
Yes, I too have never ever seen a Vitus fork with failed bonded joints ever....It's just all part of the Vitus Death Bike myth spread around by bonded bike skeptics back in the 80's....... And unfortunately still lives on with the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, Chupacabra and the Moth Man.......
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Old 02-19-15, 07:31 PM
  #29  
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What do we know about how 30 year old epoxy behaves?
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Old 02-19-15, 07:48 PM
  #30  
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I subscribe to the Burt Monroe school of (motor) bike safety...take a knife, shave the excess tread and voila, slicks good for 200 mph!

I have many bikes with old rubber, pads, tyres, pedals and don't really care. At 20 kph of course.
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Old 02-21-15, 11:48 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
What do we know about how 30 year old epoxy behaves?
I doubt that the pads were bonded with any kind of epoxy. More likely a urethane adhesive was used, which tends to be more flexible than epoxy and I believe less susceptible to degradation from ever-present water molecules.

No doubt though that testing and quality control are really, really important when we're talking about a purely-bonded brakepad attachment process, as even a half-failure (one pad ) might disturb a rider's poise while braking for a high-speed turn, resulting in death.

Certainly adhesives vendors are responsive to inquiry into possible uses of their products, and no doubt that more-developed urethane adhesives are available today for those who might want to do their own bonding experiments.
I used to request and receive samples of all kinds of products when designing power supplies and lighting apparatus, but of course it helps if one is representing themselves as a manufacturer instead of a home user.
Also, if we research the adhesive for use on a piece of stationary exercise equipment, we might at least get incomplete information and samples instead of a "don't do this" reply if we inquire about use on the more safety-liable road vehicle of any type.
Repair of brake parts is as always completely the responsibility of the judgements of safety one makes in performing repairs, with all assumptions, design, testing and quality control the responsibility of the repair person when non-standard repairs such as brake pad bonding are perhaps to be performed.

So I can in no way endorse the use of any particular bonding product for bicycle repair.

And no joke, I have complete sets of these pads on my Viscount, Windsor and Steyr. Bought 'em when they were quite cheap during earlier Ebay years. I love 'em, but might soon try to raise some funds by selling the extras I've accumulated.

As with other vintage parts and somewhat-aged tires, I adjust my riding style and air pressure to ease stresses, with my light weight easing my mind somewhat as to the old part's safety.
Heavier, stronger or more-aggressive riders should of course also consider every choice of parts carefully.

Last edited by dddd; 02-21-15 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 02-21-15, 12:14 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by irwin7638 View Post
The original Matthauser formula has been purchased by Scott who has it produced by Yokozuna. They make a nice pad compatible with modern road shoes. I don't know about the block design.

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Old 02-21-15, 02:05 PM
  #33  
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What was Mathauser thinking back then? Any engineer worth his salt would have insisted on having a more mechanical connection between the pad and holder than just the glue bond.....
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Old 02-21-15, 02:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
Mark Petry posted this on Classic Rendezvous. He said it was fine to pass along his PSA here...
Thanks for the heads up, definitely a PSA, and thanks for going through what you feel was the proper 'chain of command' to post this info here, but it amuses me that CR has a culture that expects permission to pass info along to other platforms... no offense to members of CR...
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Old 02-21-15, 02:33 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
What was Mathauser thinking back then? Any engineer worth his salt would have insisted on having a more mechanical connection between the pad and holder than just the glue bond.....
What do they use on motorcycle and automobile brake pads? I seem to recall Scott/Mathhauser's advertising claiming they used the same bonding technology as the automotive industry.



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Old 02-21-15, 03:05 PM
  #36  
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Prostate-Specific Antigen? Oh, never mind.

I appreciate it if someone doesn't recommend using these pads, but that doesn't mean we should all stop using them. I suspect they won't be the death of me.
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Old 02-21-15, 04:54 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
What do they use on motorcycle and automobile brake pads? I seem to recall Scott/Mathhauser's advertising claiming they used the same bonding technology as the automotive industry.




Just the fact that a squishy, rubber based bicycle brake pad is so much less "dimensionally stable" than brake pad materials used on cars and motorcycles, the claim to match auto brake pad bonding methods/tech is quite a stretch if not obviously flawed.....
An apples to oranges comparison from them at best, IMO. and at the least, a not so well thought out basis of design by Mathuaser.....
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Old 02-21-15, 06:16 PM
  #38  
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I think that, short of any data or recall actions suggesting a high failure rate, that the only ones who know whether the Matthauser bonded shoes are reliable are A) the thousands of riders who used and still use these pads, and B) the people who designed, tested and quality-controlled the product and it's materials.

All else is over-reaching opinionating, as is the speculation as to the composition (supposedly epoxy, but I doubt this) of the adhesive.

Before we accuse this possibly-conscientious manufacturer of careless gross negligence, can we perhaps confirm any actual advertising supporting the assertion "I seem to recall Scott/Mathhauser's advertising claiming they used the same bonding technology as the automotive industry"?
And I sure wouldn't use any sort of advertising to state how a product was actually manufactured, as advertising personnel commonly make generalized statements that are not technically truthful.

There are situations where elasticity can contribute to bond failure, and there are situations where elasticity can prevent bond failure.
Only a careful analysis followed by testing can say with certainty, but the 40-year track record of these pads, whatever it is, seems worth considering.

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Old 02-21-15, 08:01 PM
  #39  
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I agree - there's a lot of speculating about materials going on here. Data is not shown. Does anyone have a photo of a delaminated pad?
OTOH, any of us foolhardy enough to trust 20-40 year old brake pads to perform as new ones in serious descents might want to rethink. Even nonbonded pads harden over time, however subtly.
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Old 02-21-15, 08:28 PM
  #40  
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The whole thread is nonsense.
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Old 02-21-15, 08:32 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
Thanks for the heads up, definitely a PSA, and thanks for going through what you feel was the proper 'chain of command' to post this info here, but it amuses me that CR has a culture that expects permission to pass info along to other platforms... no offense to members of CR...
I kind of doubt Mark P. expected permission. I suspect Skip asked for it and was given such. Dunno, tho.
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Old 02-21-15, 08:35 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
What do we know about how 30 year old epoxy behaves?
I can tell you I've heated relatively fresh epoxy bonds and had them fail. Surprised me. And pissed me off too as it screwed up my project. Probably depends on the adhesive though.
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Old 02-21-15, 09:31 PM
  #43  
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OK, maybe I'll get rid of these pads. Heck, I can get a lot of money for them, and I wouldn't be responsible for the buyers' deaths.

KIDDING!
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Old 02-21-15, 10:44 PM
  #44  
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Been awhile since I've posted, so long in fact I forgot my password and had to make a new account.
Regarding the pads, I bought an old Motobecane Grand Jubilee a few years back and as I removed the rear wheel to put the bike in the car the rubber of the mathauser pad fell off because the tire rubbed against it. The worst part was I was so excited by the Jubilee R. Der, nice brooks and stronglight crank I actually saw the pad on the ground and forgot to pick it up before I left... otherwise I would have glued it back on and used it. As it was I sold the set (3 complete and one missing the rubber) on eBay for $25, thought that was pretty good but it was five years ago.
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Old 02-21-15, 10:56 PM
  #45  
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Put 56,000 miles on a set of those Scott/Matthauser pads on our tandem with many long and 50 = mph descents.
No issues. Sold that tandem with those pads still looking and stopping great.
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Old 02-22-15, 12:17 AM
  #46  
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Like we say in my profession (Architecture/Construction). Always best practice to have "belts and suspenders" supporting a system.... In this case, where a failure directly and immediately affects life and safety, Glue and mechanical keying/anchorage.....
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Old 02-22-15, 08:25 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
If you're looking, Yokozuna makes a modern (but not as cool looking) version Yokozuna Premium Cables, Housing and Brake Pads

I have not seen those, cool. I will get a set for the tandem.
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Old 02-23-15, 08:23 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
I can tell you I've heated relatively fresh epoxy bonds and had them fail. Surprised me. And pissed me off too as it screwed up my project. Probably depends on the adhesive though.
rootboy, et al....

I looked over new and used Scott Mathhauser brake pads a number of times back in the 70s. I never saw any sign of a glue line and came to the conclusion that the rubber was molded onto the finned carriers and then vulcanized. This process is still used on a lot of rubber covered metal products.

It's a very strong bond that usually lasts until the rubber starts to deteriorate.

For me, they just never stopped that well....

BTW, there are high temperature industrial epoxies. Automotive brake linings and pads plus clutch linings were originally riveted onto the the metal shoes. In the 1940s General Motors got a patent for bonding the brake linings to the shoes using a high temperature Phenolic resin that could withstand temperatures up to 500° F.

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Old 02-23-15, 08:34 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
What do they use on motorcycle and automobile brake pads? I seem to recall Scott/Mathhauser's advertising claiming they used the same bonding technology as the automotive industry.



John,

GM got a patent for bonding brake linings to brake shoes in the 1940s. Until then the linings were riveted to the shoes (a procees that is still used today on some brake shoes, pads and clutch disks).

The original boding material was a high temperature phenolic resin that was fired in a furnace to complete the process. It was good up to 500° F.

Today the material is phenolic resin mixed with some nitrile rubber.

BITD, I never saw a glue seam... I concluded that the rubber compound on Scott-Mathauser brake pads was molded onto the fluted aluminum backings and then vulcanized.

The process works well until the rubber starts to deteriorate (maybe the bond).

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Old 02-23-15, 08:56 PM
  #50  
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I have some of the Mathauser pads that look like those in post #32 , and remember them coming with instructions to use boiling water to loosen the glue when replacing the pads. One end of the holder was closed, so the glue was just to keep the pad from sliding out when the brakes were on and the bike was moved backwards. They are not on a bike now, for some reason I did not like them.
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