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installing a simplex derailleur on a Peugeot PA 10 frame

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installing a simplex derailleur on a Peugeot PA 10 frame

Old 03-07-15, 12:42 PM
  #1  
Ayepod
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installing a simplex derailleur on a Peugeot PA 10 frame

Hey, I'm hoping I can get advice on how best to install this simplex derailleur that I recently picked up on ebay.

Here are a couple of photos of my derailleur and also my frame.





I've been looking on youtube and various websites for simplex rear derailleur fitting but can't find anything that helps me get my head round it.
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Old 03-07-15, 12:56 PM
  #2  
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There are issues that might prevent this solution to your problem.

Remove the claw bracket on the derailleur. You do not need that piece for a frame set fitted with an integral derailleur hanger, which your frame set has.

Now, it is possible that the anchor bolt will not fit the threading of the integral derailleur hanger. If that is the case, my advice here will fall short of the uesable mark. If, however, the anchor bolt fits, then also install the nut used on the claw, to ensure the derailleur does not loosen off.

I am not positive that the above will solve your problem, but it is a starting point. Best of luck and call back if you are still confused.
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Old 03-07-15, 01:03 PM
  #3  
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But unlike the Italian dropout you dont have the B screw stop notch . Might be a better IGH conversion, in the long run, and not need a Derailleur .
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Old 03-07-15, 01:13 PM
  #4  
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You will not need the hanger "claw" that is on the derailleur as your bike has an integral hanger on the dropout. Once you remove the mushroom shaped socket bolt at the back of the claw, the claw should come off. I did also notice that the dropout eye does not have a stop on it, check to see if you need one or if there is a flat washer with bent tangs on it that act like a stop that you can transfer over to the bike's dropout eye, and hopefully it would work to stop the derailleur from swinging too far forward. Check to see if there are washers/shims used at the pivot bolt as you might not need them on the most likely thicker hanger eye on the dropout as the rear derailleur should be able to pivot freely on the upper pivot when you have it bolted on, but make sure it is not too loose laterally, so you might still need to use the thin washers to get it just right. Install the proper cabling to the shifters adjust to shift all gears and you should be set. Only other thing you might need to be a bit careful with is the front derailleur clamp. although the plastic on the front derailleur body looks brand new, you still need to be careful not to overtighten the clamp and crack the plastic, which makes it a bit tricky sometimes as you also need to make sure the clamp is tight enough so the front derailleur is not pulled down from any tension from the shift cables if you are running bare (w/o cable casing) cabling to it.
Once you get to friding with the new derailleurs, just make sre to check the condition of the plastic parts on those Simplex front and rear derailleurs as they have been known to crack at the worst times for some owners. Just keep them adjusted well and always try to do clean shifting as much as possible so you do not put too much stress on them. Also, try to only use "plastic friendly" lubrication on them, as some oils and grease are know to degrade/crack plastics. I've been using plastic friendly oil I bought from a model train shop with good results so far on some of my bike parts that have some plastic on them but I think there are some lubricants for bikes that are alos plastic friendly.

Last edited by Chombi; 03-07-15 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 03-07-15, 01:34 PM
  #5  
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Pic of Simplex on my Peugeot

Hope this helps.
You can see the silver bent-tab washer against the black mounting cylinder of the derailleur, that was previously mentioned.
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Old 03-07-15, 10:12 PM
  #6  
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Won't the wingnut be blocked by the derailleur?
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Old 03-07-15, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Won't the wingnut be blocked by the derailleur?
It's small.
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Old 03-07-15, 10:48 PM
  #8  
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M
Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
You will not need the hanger "claw" that is on the derailleur as your bike has an integral hanger on the dropout. Once you remove the mushroom shaped socket bolt at the back of the claw, the claw should come off. I did also notice that the dropout eye does not have a stop on it, check to see if you need one or if there is a flat washer with bent tangs on it that act like a stop that you can transfer over to the bike's dropout eye, and hopefully it would work to stop the derailleur from swinging too far forward. Check to see if there are washers/shims used at the pivot bolt as you might not need them on the most likely thicker hanger eye on the dropout as the rear derailleur should be able to pivot freely on the upper pivot when you have it bolted on, but make sure it is not too loose laterally, so you might still need to use the thin washers to get it just right. Install the proper cabling to the shifters adjust to shift all gears and you should be set. Only other thing you might need to be a bit careful with is the front derailleur clamp. although the plastic on the front derailleur body looks brand new, you still need to be careful not to overtighten the clamp and crack the plastic, which makes it a bit tricky sometimes as you also need to make sure the clamp is tight enough so the front derailleur is not pulled down from any tension from the shift cables if you are running bare (w/o cable casing) cabling to it.
Once you get to friding with the new derailleurs, just make sre to check the condition of the plastic parts on those Simplex front and rear derailleurs as they have been known to crack at the worst times for some owners. Just keep them adjusted well and always try to do clean shifting as much as possible so you do not put too much stress on them. Also, try to only use "plastic friendly" lubrication on them, as some oils and grease are know to degrade/crack plastics. I've been using plastic friendly oil I bought from a model train shop with good results so far on some of my bike parts that have some plastic on them but I think there are some lubricants for bikes that are alos plastic friendly.
My only additional comment is to use two Allen keys when removing the dérailleur from the claw mount, holding the bolt from turning, only remove the back. When installing, the same rule applies, the bolt is held from turning in the body, only tighten from the back.
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Old 03-07-15, 11:03 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by Ayepod View Post
Hey, I'm hoping I can get advice on how best to install this simplex derailleur that I recently picked up on ebay.

Here are a couple of photos of my derailleur and also my frame.





I've been looking on youtube and various websites for simplex rear derailleur fitting but can't find anything that helps me get my head round it.
Your rear derailleur isn't going to work without getting some unobtainium parts...

Some of the older Simplex rear derailleurs could be used either with or without the claw hanger. It was a simple job to remove the hanger. Yours is not one of them.

Scroll down to message 8 in the thread below and you'll find all the reasons and the solutions.

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-capacity.html

Note: the parts for your derailleur may be different than the one pictured with the claw hanger.

verktyg

Chas.

Last edited by verktyg; 03-07-15 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 03-08-15, 04:47 AM
  #10  
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Thanks everyone, delighted to get a great response to my first post on bike forums.

I've managed to take the claw off and tried to attach it to the hanger. See photo...



The bolt is just long enough and no more, not sure if there will be enough room to accommodate the tabbed washer as recommended. Is this going to work out alright?

Thanks again
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Old 03-08-15, 08:05 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Ayepod View Post
I've managed to take the claw off and tried to attach it to the hanger. See photo...



The bolt is just long enough and no more, not sure if there will be enough room to accommodate the tabbed washer as recommended. Is this going to work out alright?
No, it isn't going to work because the "tabbed washer" limits the derailleur rotation and is necessary to tension the pivot spring.

Did you look at my message with the parts breakdown?

Check out this link:

Simplex parts catalog (05-1977)

There were 2 different top pivot bolts and they don't interchange! I included a picture of the correct pivot bolt in the link that I refferencd in my previous message.

You have an S001 T/P derailleur with a claw that uses a # 2971 top pivot bolt.

The S001 T/SP derailleur was made for direct mounting to the dropout. It used a # 2977 top pivot bolt plus the # 2978 tabbed washer and a # 2551 mounting bolt to attach the derailleur to the dropout.

Chances of finding the correct parts are slim to none. A while back, someone in France was offering these parts but they would have cost over $40 plus shipping!

How do I know all of this stuff? I've been messing around with Simplex derailleurs for over 40 years.

I have a couple of Simplex derailleurs that I bought that use the same type of claw mount as yours. They're sitting in a drawer.

I thought that I had the correct parts to change them to direct mount style. Simplex continuously changed they're designs and the parts I have wont work on the newer model derailleurs from the mid 70s on.

My suggestions is find a sacrificial Simplex derailleur with the correct parts and swap them out or... find a Simplex derailleur made for direct mounting. You could also use a Shimano or other make with a "tabbed washer" rotation limit stop. You would need to get a M10x1 tap and thread the mounting hole.

The Simplex S001 derailleurs were "entry" level models. Assuming that you want to keep your PR-10 all French, I'd look for a Simplex SX410 or SX610 direct mount derailleur. The bodies are almost all metal with only a little bit of Delrin plastic used in them. They are going to work better than the S001 that you have.

The other Simplex alternative would be to find an older Simplex Criterium model derailleur. Most of them were direct mount and if it had a claw you could just remove it.

verktyg

Chas.

Last edited by verktyg; 03-08-15 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 03-08-15, 08:33 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Won't the wingnut be blocked by the derailleur?
From the days when my AO-8 still had wingnuts, the one on the derailleur side was different than the others in that the wings were arc'ed higher to clear the RD. Of course the AO-8 used the claw.

[Flame suit on]: you can make this work by sawing off the hanger and just using the claw!! Its called Drewing and seems very popular amongst a sub culture of the biking community [Flame suit off] [and I really was just kidding! Get a different derailleur]

I also think that if you are handy (or have a friendly machinist near to hand) you could adapt the original pivot bolt and fabricate a tabbed washer. I'd probably cut off the threaded portion and drill/tap a hole in the remainder of the pivot bolt to sort of replicate the mounting system that @verktyg shows in the catalog page.

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Old 03-08-15, 01:53 PM
  #13  
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Thanks all. That's what I get for buying stuff off ebay before even finding out if they're compatible. Learning is what this project is all about though!

I'll take it along to a local guy and see if we can make it work.

Also, yes, the wingnut is clipping the derailleur! It's very marginal but yeah, that's going to be an issue.
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Old 03-08-15, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by markk900 View Post
From the days when my AO-8 still had wingnuts.
Back in the early 70s quick release hubs were a sign of a better quality bike... Wing nuts and nutted hubs in general was considered Cheap! We're talking sub $100 bike boom bikes in both cases.

Wing nuts went away in the US market after about 1971 or 72. It might have been a "lawyer thing"...


Originally Posted by markk900 View Post
[Flame suit on]: you can make this work by sawing off the hanger and just using the claw!! Its called Drewing and seems very popular amongst a sub culture of the biking community...
Wash your mouth out with some lye soap then I'm taking you down to the spay and neuter clinic!

A lot of mid range French bikes came with Simplex derailleurs and Simplex dropouts with integrated hangers. It was a simple 20 minute job to modify the hanger on a Simplex dropout so that a Campy or Suntour derailleur would fit.



There were a number of hamfisted idiots who took a hacksaw to the Simplex dropouts. One of these dumb a**ed idiots even wrote an article in an early 70s bike magazine showing how to neuter a Simplex dropout so that a Campy RD with a claw would fit!



Ignorance is curable - stupidity is NOT!

Most of the idiots have never been out in the cold wind and rain, having to fix a flat rear tire. The claws invariably work loose so that when you remove the rear wheel, the derailleur falls out, the chain usually twists around and you have a wet greasy mess on your hands.

Those folks who did or do the cutting should have been limited to simpler "bikes" like these:




Originally Posted by markk900 View Post
I also think that if you are handy (or have a friendly machinist near to hand) you could adapt the original pivot bolt and fabricate a tabbed washer. I'd probably cut off the threaded portion and drill/tap a hole in the remainder of the pivot bolt to sort of replicate the mounting system that @verktyg shows in the catalog page.
The Simplex S001 derailleurs were 2nd from the bottom of the line out of 10-12 models. The Simplex Delrin plastic derailleurs actually shifted better than Campy Nuovo Record derailleurs but needed constant adjusting and lubrication.

Also the OPs derailleurs while NOS-NIB are almost 40 years old and plastic deteriorates over time especially when exposed to UV sunlight and various kinds of lubricants.


Silk purse out of a sow's ear...

The S001 derailleur is hardly worth the time and money it would take to modify or make the parts unless you're into reviving things like these:



I did a quick check on eBay and there's half a dozen derailleurs listed that can be used for parts or the metal bodied SX models that will work much better.

One other thing, getting the upper pivot spring properly tensioned on these derailleurs takes 3 hands and is tricky the first time you try it.

ben-air-dun-at...

@markk900 - Your suggestion to find another derailleur is probably the best solution.


verktyg grouchy retrogrouch

Chas.
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Old 03-08-15, 03:38 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Back in the early 70s quick release hubs were a sign of a better quality bike... Wing nuts and nutted hubs in general was considered Cheap! We're talking sub $100 bike boom bikes in both cases.

Wing nuts went away in the US market after about 1971 or 72. It might have been a "lawyer thing"...
Well, c`mon now. To be fair, many 40s through early 60s bikes of all quality levels used wing nuts - it was actually a sign of a "racier" bike that could have its wheels removed without tools. With the advent of inexpensive QR systems even entry level bikes could then have QR and make them also appear "racy".

The AO-8 was an entry level bike, as was the UO-8 - biggest difference between the two from a functional perspective was the low flange/wing nut of the AO-8 vs. the high flange/QR of the UO-8. I preferred the ride of a low flange hub so when I relaced those original AO-8 wheels in the early 70s I used Mavic Red Label (I think) tubular rims and replaced the axles front and rear with hollow ones and added QR skewers (mostly because I didn't want people to think I was trying to race on a "cheap" bike - which I was!).

I still have that AO-8 (now with replacement wheels with decent quality hubs and rims), and tried out the S001 (as a replacement for the original Prestige RD that it came with). Works fine. Agree it is not worth modifying to suit the nice frame of the OP, (I think I got mine from VO for $13), but there are lots of folks out there that relish a fabrication challenge so I thought I would throw the idea out there. (BTW - that Nash looks pretty sweet).

For the OP - if you really want wing nuts, I think you'll find plenty of selection on ebay: here's a NOS set (way too expensive in my opinion) of rear ones that look to be higher clearance than yours
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Huret...item3f3ba256df

BTW: isn't modifying the Simplex drop out by making the hole bigger, tapping it, and cutting away the back of the mount almost as bad as drewing? I mean, the changes are not reversible and I sure would be pissed to be trying to restore some classic old French bike with all original parts and find my Simplex dropout all messed up!

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Old 03-16-15, 11:37 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by markk900 View Post
Well, c`mon now. To be fair, many 40s through early 60s bikes of all quality levels used wing nuts - it was actually a sign of a "racier" bike that could have its wheels removed without tools. With the advent of inexpensive QR systems even entry level bikes could then have QR and make them also appear "racy".

The AO-8 was an entry level bike, as was the UO-8 - biggest difference between the two from a functional perspective was the low flange/wing nut of the AO-8 vs. the high flange/QR of the UO-8.
During the bike boom, large flange, quick release hubs were considered a sign of a quality bike among the uninitiated US buyers.

Now to induce looks of horror in some... We used to change out the early Simplex quick releases and replace them with Normandy Atom QRs which worked very well. The cost to the customers was about $5.00. Simplex QRs were dangerous for several reasons.

For one thing it was too easy for inexperienced rider to tighten them then wrong way and they could come loose. Second the pot metal (generally a zinc alloy) lever, could easily break where the steel pin that attached them to the lock-over mechanism went though the lever.



Before all the anecdotal stories... think, Chevy Corvair and Ford Pinto, etc.

Originally Posted by markk900 View Post
BTW: isn't modifying the Simplex drop out by making the hole bigger, tapping it, and cutting away the back of the mount almost as bad as drewing? I mean, the changes are not reversible and I sure would be pissed to be trying to restore some classic old French bike with all original parts and find my Simplex dropout all messed up!
But... the surgery was happening long before the hipster's fathers even knew what a gleam was...

The other thing, even after the modification, you could still attach a direct mount Simplex derailleur. The 10mm tap didn't increase the 9mm bore by very much so the Simplex shoulder bolt still worked fine. Also there was a recess in the inside of the older dropout hangers where the the head of the mounting bolt fit.



It was a modification that went back to the 1960s so it was hardly "drewing"...

verktyg

Chas.
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Old 03-17-15, 12:55 PM
  #17  
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I have a 1972 PA10. Currently on loan to friend.

The integrated derailleur hanger is NOT threaded. Derailleurs with mounting bolts for this type of hanger are difficult if not impossible to find. Originally, there were Simplex derailleurs made to mount onto the non-threaded derailleur hanger.

It appears from the OPs pictures, that the integrated deraillieur mount is not threaded. I may not be seeing the picture very well.

If not threaded, what are your options?

1. Tap the integrated derailleur mount to add threads for mounting "modern" derailleurs. I have been told that this works. I have not done this myself.

2. Mount a derailleur with a claw, at the rear axle. This is what I did and it works fine. I cannot remember if it is a solid core or quick release axle. No wing nuts.
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Old 03-17-15, 02:39 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
I have a 1972 PA10.
The integrated derailleur hanger is NOT threaded. Derailleurs with mounting bolts for this type of hanger are difficult if not impossible to find. Originally, there were Simplex derailleurs made to mount onto the non-threaded derailleur hanger.
Au contraire mon frere

In 1973 Shimano started producing rear derailleurs with tabs similar to what Simplex used to limit rotation.

Early 70s Shimano Crane, DuraAce and Titlist derailleurs all had these tabs just like on Simplex direct mount derailleurs:



Direct mount Simplex derailleurs. There were probably millions of these style derailleurs produced between the early 60s and when Simplex went au revoir:



You can get a ~$5.00 M10x1 tap at most hardware or auto parts stores. You don't need to do anything other than tap the hole in the dropout hanger for these RDs to fit and work. The small diameter of the hole remains about 9mm which was the original dimension so Simplex RDs still fit.

Even later model Suntour and Campagnolo RDs would fit after threading the hole.


Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
It appears from the OPs pictures, that the integrated derailleur mount is not threaded. I may not be seeing the picture very well.

If not threaded, what are your options?

1. Tap the integrated derailleur mount to add threads for mounting "modern" derailleurs. I have been told that this works. I have not done this myself.

2. Mount a derailleur with a claw, at the rear axle. This is what I did and it works fine. I cannot remember if it is a solid core or quick release axle. No wing nuts.
In the mid 1970s Simplex started producing dropouts that worked with the de facto Campagnolo style mounting system. They were never very common until the late 70s. Huret did the same thing.

Original Simplex "Banjo" style dropout with axle adjuster screw modified for Campy style mounting.



New style Simplex dropouts with adjuster screws and Campy style hanger. There was a piece of plastic in the round hole to limit the screw movement.



BTW you can use Simplex direct mount derialleurs on most Campy style hangers without modification! Same thing with all of the above mentioned RDs.


In response to your comment "If not threaded, what are your options?"

1. Please see fix above.

2. A "CLAW HANGER"!



Mortification of the flesh!

Apparently you've never experienced the joy of trying to change a rear tire out in the wind and rain and have the claw mount rear derailleur fall out of the dropout and spin around and get twisted up on the freewheel and get your hands covered with wet gooey black chain grease and then try to clean your fingers off so that you can change the tube and remount the wheel!


When an unknown mid range bike came into our shop the first thing that we did was check to see if it had an integral derailleur hanger. That was usually a sign of a better quality bike that was easier to work on. It determined who worked on the bike. Those with claw hangers went to a less skilled mechanic or were consigned to the bottom of the list.

It wasn't bike snobbery! Most lower end bikes from the early 70s had claw mounts. They were always harder to work on because the components, especially the cables and cable housing were CHEAP!

Yes. I'm being a I worked on too many of those kinds of bikes BITD (I'm not talking about department store clunkers either - they were European gas pipe bikes).


verktyg grouchy retrogrouch!

Chas.
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Last edited by verktyg; 03-17-15 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 03-17-15, 07:56 PM
  #19  
John E
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My vote, for what it's worth, is to adapt your tab, as described above, to take a newer, better rear derailleur, which could still be French, if you like.

My 1980 PKN-10 came with a Simplex, which I replaced with a SunTour Cyclone and later swapped back to the Simplex when I gave the bike to my elder son, who wanted a wider gear range than the old man. (I ran 48-45-34 / 13-15-17-19-21-23; he has 52-45-34 / 13-15-17-19-21-23-26.)
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Old 03-17-15, 08:39 PM
  #20  
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Use the claw, mount it on the axle as if the bike didn't have a hanger. With luck the protruding threads from the claw pivot should settle nicely in the hanger drilling. No modification of anything necessary. Yes, you'll have to deal with a claw when you remove the rear wheel, but you're not in a race so take your time.

Ride the bike like that for a while, as you search for one upgrade or another. After you "upgrade" to a more modern or more accurately vintage part, you'll be surprised at how little difference it actually makes.
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Old 03-17-15, 08:48 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Au contraire mon frere
@verktyg,

I am confused by your comments about rear derailleurs.

My comments where not about rear derailleurs, Simplex or otherwise.

My comments where about the integrated derailleur hanger on the rear dropout of the 1972 Peugeot PA10. I repeat, this derailleur hanger was not threaded. The mounting bolt for most rear derailleurs will not work on this derailleur hanger.

Can we agree on that?
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Old 03-17-15, 10:13 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
@verktyg,

I am confused by your comments about rear derailleurs.

My comments where not about rear derailleurs, Simplex or otherwise.

My comments where about the integrated derailleur hanger on the rear dropout of the 1972 Peugeot PA10. I repeat, this derailleur hanger was not threaded. The mounting bolt for most rear derailleurs will not work on this derailleur hanger.
Simplistic answers:

Yes the Simplex dropouts with hangers that were produced from the early 1960s until the late 1970s were not threaded.

The mounting bolts for most other brands of rear derailleurs wont fit without modification because those Simplex dropouts are not threaded.




Please don't take my messages as a personal affront. I'm sharing my 40+ years experience with derailleur bikes with everyone who reads these forums. Been there - done that!


Direct mount rear derailleurs and dropouts with hangers are Integrated Systems. Knowing what will and wont work can make your bike experiences a lot easier.

There is a very simple easy 5 minute modification to allow a lot of other rear derailleurs to work with your dropout: thread the 9mm hole in the Simplex with a 10mm x 1.0mm tap. The hole will still be about 9mm in diameter so a Simplex direct mount derailleur will still work with zero problems.



verktyg

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