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View on disc brakes

Old 10-08-15, 04:59 PM
  #76  
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I'll consider disks on a road bike under the following conditions:
  • The combined setup (frame and calipers) is lighter than my rim brake setup. I pay a lot of $ to get lightweight carbon bling, so this is a high priority for me.
  • There is no increase in rear stay spacing. I don't want my heels banging up against my stays on every pedal stroke. The Q-factor on modern bikes is already ridiculously wide and biomechanically inefficient. It should not increase.
  • I don't want to pay a lot. I already get great dry and wet weather braking from rim brakes. Scott brake pads are amazing.
  • I don't want the stigma of having disk brakes on road group rides. Our group already puts these guys at the back of the pack over concerns over a general lack of experience and the ability to cause mass pile-ups. The disks should be small and stealthy.
  • I don't want any hassle over some bizarre new quick-release standard. On my bikes I grind those $%#!@!! lawyer tabs off the forks, so that when I flip the lever the wheel falls out. Like it should. A quick release. Any kind of 'pass-through' or whatever axle is a pain in the ass.
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Old 10-09-15, 08:21 AM
  #77  
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^^^ " Pass through" ? You mean through axles. A much better way to put a wheel on a bike. Solid interface. Consistent alignment, Stronger and no flex. Standard on my mt bikes, already starting for road.
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Old 10-09-15, 08:39 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I'll consider disks on a road bike under the following conditions:
  • The combined setup (frame and calipers) is lighter than my rim brake setup. I pay a lot of $ to get lightweight carbon bling, so this is a high priority for me.
  • There is no increase in rear stay spacing. I don't want my heels banging up against my stays on every pedal stroke. The Q-factor on modern bikes is already ridiculously wide and biomechanically inefficient. It should not increase.
  • I don't want to pay a lot. I already get great dry and wet weather braking from rim brakes. Scott brake pads are amazing.
  • I don't want the stigma of having disk brakes on road group rides. Our group already puts these guys at the back of the pack over concerns over a general lack of experience and the ability to cause mass pile-ups. The disks should be small and stealthy.
  • I don't want any hassle over some bizarre new quick-release standard. On my bikes I grind those $%#!@!! lawyer tabs off the forks, so that when I flip the lever the wheel falls out. Like it should. A quick release. Any kind of 'pass-through' or whatever axle is a pain in the ass.
The above is basically a manifesto entitled "why I will never use disc brakes".
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Old 10-09-15, 02:56 PM
  #79  
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I have read through this thread and really I can only see 2 valid points that have been made.

First is the price point. I agree that buying a bike with more expensive brakes takes away from the drivetrain quality. You as the end consumer needs to figure out what is more important to you.

Second is people's general bad attitude against any sort of change. We as humans are creatures of habit and feel comfortable with things that we know inside and out. If you are comfortable with rim brakes then that is what you like and will most likely buy.

The reality is that over the course of history with just about every vehicle, there are always going to be improvments made along the way. Brakes have come along way since the covered wagon days of a lever that pushes against the wheel. As time has gone by the idea of linkage, rods, cables, and manually applied brakes have changed to hydraulic application with power assist. It is simple to realize that a hydraulic controls produce more power than mechanical controls, given similar sized parameters and needs. The real debate comes in at how much braking power is practical and neccesary for YOUR given riding style.

So as disc brakes become lighter and cheaper, their applications will increase, and acceptance will increase as well. But for now we still have the old timers who cling to their rim brakes and look down on those who are open minded enough to embrace the change.

I got a kick out the post above talking about how the disc brake guys are looked down on and told to get to the back of the pack. No need for that kind of machismo bravado and BS and I wouldn't bother to join a ride that had those type of people in it. Brake racism to go along with bike snoberry....LOL.

Last edited by Bryan C.; 10-09-15 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 10-09-15, 03:26 PM
  #80  
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I strongly disagree that cyclists have a "bad attitude" towards change. There is typically a wide range of opinions on new tech.

mtb racers embraced disc brakes readily, whereas pro road racers are more ambivalent or even opposed. Pro road racers are not "old timers" they are typically in their twenties, yet they are unwilling to embrace discs. Why? They have valid concerns about the new tech, it has nothing to do with age or an unwillingness to embrace "new" tech.

Within the industry, I don't recall a lot of opposition to trigger shifters, aside from grant petersen.

I thought hyperglide was the cat's meow, but that biopace was goofy. Both were "new" yet I embraced one, rejected the other.

I embraced alu as a "new" frame tech when it became available, but am more ambivalent about carbon fiber, another "new" tech.

Overall, I think your generalizations are very poorly thought out. I suggest you return to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post
I have read through this thread and really I can only see 2 valid points that have been made.

First is the price point. I agree that buying a bike with more expensive brakes takes away from the drivetrain quality. You as the end consumer needs to figure out what is more important to you.

Second is people's general bad attitude against any sort of change. We as humans are creatures of habit and feel comfortable with things that we know inside and out. If you are comfortable with rim brakes then that is what you like and will most likely buy.

The reality is that over the course of history with just about every vehicle, there are always going to be improvments made along the way. Brakes have come along way since the covered wagon days of a lever that pushes against the wheel. As time has gone by the idea of linkage, rods, cables, and manually applied brakes have changed to hydraulic application with power assist. It is simple to realize that a hydraulic controls produce more power than mechanical controls, given similar sized parameters and needs. The real debate comes in at how much braking power is practical and neccesary for YOUR given riding style.

So as disc brakes become lighter and cheaper, their applications will increase, and acceptance will increase as well. But for now we still have the old timers who cling to their rim brakes and look down on those who are open minded enough to embrace the change.

I got a kick out the post above talking about how the disc brake guys are looked down on and told to get to the back of the pack. No need for that kind of machismo bravado and BS and I wouldn't bother to join a ride that had those type of people in it. Brake racism to go along with bike snoberry....LOL.
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Old 10-09-15, 03:43 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by calimtb View Post
I strongly disagree that cyclists have a "bad attitude" towards change. There is typically a wide range of opinions on new tech.


Overall, I think your generalizations are very poorly thought out. I suggest you return to the drawing board.
Your assertions aren't very well thought out either. Fads are just that, fads. The trickle down effect of proven upgrades isn't a fad. Improvements in any given system can be applied as needed to other applications with similar results.

Humans aren't creatures of habit? Maybe you need to rethink your response on that as well.

You seem to have missed the point I made about how much braking is needed for YOUR riding style is debatable.
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Old 10-09-15, 04:05 PM
  #82  
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Like I said, go back to the drawing board. Return to the thread when you have something to offer besides hackneyed cliches.

Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post

Humans aren't creatures of habit?
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Old 10-09-15, 04:27 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by calimtb View Post
Like I said, go back to the drawing board. Return to the thread when you have something to offer besides hackneyed cliches.
hahaha, you read one thing and stop? Funny.


Ok, I'll feed your inner troll.

If you don't agree with my opinion on that one point, then fine.

Maybe I can spell it out for you.

It has been proven in many ways and instances that a hydraulic system provides more power than a purely mechanical system given the same size requirements. Is that power necessary? That is the true debate.

Does a 140lb competetive racer riding a 15lb road bike need disc brakes? Doubtful. The guy probably isn't maxing out his rim brake capability so why bother with the added weight and expense of disc brakes? Doesn't make a bit of sense to have anything other than rim brakes. A race bike is built with a minimalist attitude in general. No need for anything more than the bare minimum. That makes perfect sense.

The avreage MTB rider finds disc brakes useful due to nature of riding off road. Mud and water are somewhat common and the disc brake lends itself to that environment very well. Mud and water on rim brakes whith technical turns and obstacles doesn't work well with rim brakes. That is pretty obvious.

The average road cyclist doesn't need disc brakes, that is why disc brakes aren't popular. Heavy and expensive top the list, along with impractical for their riding conditions.

Maybe you should try reading the whole statement before quoting one line and making up the rest in your mind about what the post says.

Maybe I need to spell out more clearly for you and others to better understand my point of view? Probably.

Sorry if I struck a nerve with you calling you an old timer when you are still such a young guy.
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Old 10-09-15, 04:44 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by calimtb View Post
Like I said, go back to the drawing board. Return to the thread when you have something to offer besides hackneyed cliches.
Hi, Sam
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Old 10-09-15, 05:08 PM
  #85  
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As I tried pointing out earlier, none of your points below has anything to do with your specious claims about "human nature."

As far as road discs, once quality shimano hydraulics come down to a 'reasonable' price point, I'll give them serious consideration.

Then again, maybe not. Shimano is still refining dual pivots now with dual mounting points.

Also, your implications are quite clear: road discs are not being adopted as quickly as you'd like because people are "creatures of habit." or are simply "old" or both. This is a complete joke and your attempt to deny your illogical line of reasoning doesn't work, despite endless denials or claims of "trolling."

Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post
hahaha, you read one thing and stop? Funny.


Ok, I'll feed your inner troll.

If you don't agree with my opinion on that one point, then fine.

Maybe I can spell it out for you.

It has been proven in many ways and instances that a hydraulic system provides more power than a purely mechanical system given the same size requirements. Is that power necessary? That is the true debate.

Does a 140lb competetive racer riding a 15lb road bike need disc brakes? Doubtful. The guy probably isn't maxing out his rim brake capability so why bother with the added weight and expense of disc brakes? Doesn't make a bit of sense to have anything other than rim brakes. A race bike is built with a minimalist attitude in general. No need for anything more than the bare minimum. That makes perfect sense.

The avreage MTB rider finds disc brakes useful due to nature of riding off road. Mud and water are somewhat common and the disc brake lends itself to that environment very well. Mud and water on rim brakes whith technical turns and obstacles doesn't work well with rim brakes. That is pretty obvious.

The average road cyclist doesn't need disc brakes, that is why disc brakes aren't popular. Heavy and expensive top the list, along with impractical for their riding conditions.

Maybe you should try reading the whole statement before quoting one line and making up the rest in your mind about what the post says.

Maybe I need to spell out more clearly for you and others to better understand my point of view? Probably.

Sorry if I struck a nerve with you calling you an old timer when you are still such a young guy.
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Old 10-09-15, 05:35 PM
  #86  
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Perhaps you are reading a different thread than I am. This whole thread is a few good facts mixed in with fear of the unkown and "what I got works fine why should I change" type comments.

Maybe you should read something other than internet forums and looka bit closer into human nature. Just beacuse you think you do not fall into the creature of habit category doesn't mean other people don't fall into that category. Obviously you are set in your ways and have no intention of seeing things any other way. Is that not what I am talking about with human nature and fear or the new and unkown? Sorry if this is too advanced for you to follow.
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Old 10-12-15, 02:12 PM
  #87  
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I like the idea of discs. And I also like how it looks like all the 2016 Roubaix discs are thru axel now. But Specialized is still doing their "SCS" proprietary hubs, so that worries me. It gives Clydes very few wheel options if you want a disc Roubaix. In fact, you can only use Spesh wheels. They say off the record that some of their splashier carbon wheels are plenty strong for Clydes, but I'd prefer 32 spokes, thanks.
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Old 10-13-15, 05:23 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
^^^ " Pass through" ? You mean through axles. A much better way to put a wheel on a bike. Solid interface. Consistent alignment, Stronger and no flex. Standard on my mt bikes, already starting for road.
Huh? I use standard quick release axles. You flip the lever and the wheel falls out. No spinning or passing through or whatever. To drop the wheel out and then reinstall the wheel and lock the lever takes under 5 seconds.

I have never had any 'alignment problems' or 'flex' and the interface is plenty strong for a road bike.

So is there something inherently wrong with disk brakes that causes wheel ejection? Another reason not to use disks.....
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Old 10-14-15, 11:24 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
So is there something inherently wrong with disk brakes that causes wheel ejection? Another reason not to use disks.....
"Inherently wrong"? No. Different? Yes. The force of braking happens much closer to the axle. And the advantages of discs outweigh that difference for many folks.
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Old 10-14-15, 11:38 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post
Perhaps you are reading a different thread than I am. This whole thread is a few good facts mixed in with fear of the unkown and "what I got works fine why should I change" type comments.

Maybe you should read something other than internet forums and looka bit closer into human nature. Just beacuse you think you do not fall into the creature of habit category doesn't mean other people don't fall into that category. Obviously you are set in your ways and have no intention of seeing things any other way. Is that not what I am talking about with human nature and fear or the new and unkown? Sorry if this is too advanced for you to follow.
I see you flunked intro philosophy many, many times and are now trying to rehash your failings and jumbled illogic on a bicycle forum. Good luck, lol.

Just a quick heads up:

1. rhetorical questions = facts

2. some = all

3. "human nature" is not predictive of bicycle component choices or marketing.

Sorry if this is too advanced for you to follow.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:13 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by calimtb View Post
I see you flunked intro philosophy many, many times and are now trying to rehash your failings and jumbled illogic on a bicycle forum. Good luck, lol.

Just a quick heads up:

1. rhetorical questions = facts

2. some = all

3. "human nature" is not predictive of bicycle component choices or marketing.

Sorry if this is too advanced for you to follow.

I had forgot all about this thread. I guess I really got under your skin to come back to it days later for some half witted response like that.

Do us all a favor, fill out this form and forward it to the forum moderator. Then log out and go for a ride and forget about this thread like I did.

[IMG]http://www.27bslash6.com/brf.jpg[/IMG]

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Old 10-14-15, 12:33 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
"Inherently wrong"? No. Different? Yes. The force of braking happens much closer to the axle. And the advantages of discs outweigh that difference for many folks.
Let's not be coy here... differences between any 2 things can and should be assigned a value of more right or more wrong.

So the braking forces caused by a disk are generated at the end of the fork. Which is why disk-brake forks have to be so much more bulked up (heavier) than rim brake forks.

And to prevent the wheel from being ejected with disks, I have to add a pain-in-the-ass through-axle setup, which is no longer a quick-release. Which eliminates my ability to use my excellent stash of road wheels, of which I am looking at 20+ pairs right now. And since all of the new QR setups are (of course) incompatible between vendors, we now have wheel chaos and the 'need' to buy a whole bunch of new stuff. Which was probably the goal of this specious 'innovation' in the first place.

Going back to first principles, since I already have great braking performance from rim brakes (on steep hills in the rain), why should I buy into this nonsense?
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Old 10-14-15, 12:38 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Let's not be coy here... differences between any 2 things can and should be assigned a value of more right or more wrong.

So the braking forces caused by a disk are generated at the end of the fork. Which is why disk-brake forks have to be so much more bulked up (heavier) than rim brake forks.

And to prevent the wheel from being ejected with disks, I have to add a pain-in-the-ass through-axle setup, which is no longer a quick-release. Which eliminates my ability to use my excellent stash of road wheels, of which I am looking at 20+ pairs right now. And since all of the new QR setups are (of course) incompatible between vendors, we now have wheel chaos and the 'need' to buy a whole bunch of new stuff. Which was probably the goal of this specious 'innovation' in the first place.

Going back to first principles, since I already have great braking performance from rim brakes (on steep hills in the rain), why should I buy into this nonsense?
No one is forcing you to. It's not the right choice FOR YOU. It may be the right choice for someone else, and that doesn't make you or them "wrong". It's not "nonsense". Your absoluteness about this is the problem, not the technology.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:43 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
You're hellbent on making a reasonable discussion into an absurd one, aren't you?
I haven't seen any "reasonable discussion" from you yet. All you seem to want to do is engage in name calling. That's not "reasonable".
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Old 10-14-15, 12:48 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post
People made this same argument when cars started changing over from drum brakes to disc brakes. It's ok, for some people change is a scary thing. You seem to be one of those people. Do you still have a flip phone too?
No, people didn't make "this same argument when cars started changing from drum brakes to disc brakes" because cars were changing from drum brakes to disc brakes. Bicycles with rim brakes already have disc brakes. Now when bikes made the change from coaster brakes (mostly in the US) to rim brakes, I'm not sure you found a whole lot of people complaining about how much better coaster brakes were. Some people still think that coasters are the bee's knees but there aren't many of them.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:58 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by dksix View Post
@cyccommute, 2 statements you made are inaccurate. 1, the hydraulic system should be self adjusting for wear. 2, in comparing between rim brakes and "disc" brakes being both disc brakes.....the big difference is rigidity. The caliper on disc brakes will flex much less the calipers of a rim brake and the rim is far more likely to collapse than a solid steel disc. The hydraulic system likely generates far more power and the disc brake system will be much more efficient at transferring power into stopping power.

Another factor I don't have the math knowledge to calculate is how much advantage the leverage of being so far from center give rim brakes over a 160-180mm disc. That's the only advantage I could see rim brakes having.
Yes, hydraulic is self-adjusting but hydraulics aren't as common as mechanical brakes. Also, depending on how firm you want the lever, you may have to do some adjustment to the system as the pad wear. This many even include bleeding the system depending on how much you let the pad wear.

I doubt that you'll notice too much difference in rigidity between the two systems. If a rim is going to "collapse" under braking, it's going to collapse independent of which brake system you use. While a wheel collapsing under braking might have occurred sometime in the past but I would put the event on the "almost impossible" end of possible failure spectrum.
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Old 10-14-15, 01:15 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
No one is forcing you to. It's not the right choice FOR YOU. It may be the right choice for someone else, and that doesn't make you or them "wrong". It's not "nonsense". Your absoluteness about this is the problem, not the technology.
Your arguments are still confused. It is potentially not just my problem, but for a significant majority of new road riders who get suckered into buying a braking solution that is expensive, fussy, heavy and ultimately overkill.

Disk brakes are useful on mountain bikes. For real mountain biking on steep muddy slopes. Or tandems. Or loaded touring bikes. Not needed on road bikes.

Finally, disk brakes tie you tightly to the vendor and your local shop. These products lock you into a particular brand and limited wheelset option. Which is the basis of a lot of development in the bike industry... the introduction of 'standards' that deliberately tie you to a specific vendor. And disk brakes will lock you to your shop; I have successfully undertaken every type of rim brake work, but I would have to run back to my shop for every brake bleed and refill. How much will this cost you?
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Old 10-14-15, 02:00 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Your arguments are still confused. It is potentially not just my problem, but for a significant majority of new road riders who get suckered into buying a braking solution that is expensive, fussy, heavy and ultimately overkill.
You gave reasons like the "20 sets of wheels" you have right now. I addressed those. We're the Clyde forum. Fat guys and gals who, on downhills, may need more breaking ability than rim brakes provide.

Have you TRIED them? Have you actually done a test ride? I have. I love the modulation and feedback. They're just flat out better. And the GCN guys who have tested them found that on descents they went faster with discs.

If you don't want disc brakes no one is forcing you. Some of us have done the math and think they're worth it. I agree on your point of vendor lock in - as soon as Specialized has an option that has more hubs than just theirs available I'll jump on that bandwagon. If I bought a Domane disc from Trek right now I could build whatever wheel I want.
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Old 10-14-15, 02:12 PM
  #99  
calimtb
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Originally Posted by Bryan C. View Post
I had forgot all about this thread. I guess I really got under your skin to come back to it days later for some half witted response like that.

Do us all a favor, fill out this form and forward it to the forum moderator. Then log out and go for a ride and forget about this thread like I did.

[IMG]http://www.27bslash6.com/brf.jpg[/IMG]
Temper, temper.

What's that definition of 'human nature' again? And how does it force us to choose disc or rim brakes? ;-)
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Old 10-14-15, 02:14 PM
  #100  
calimtb
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Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
You gave reasons like the "20 sets of wheels" you have right now. I addressed those. We're the Clyde forum. Fat guys and gals who, on downhills, may need more breaking ability than rim brakes provide.

Have you TRIED them? Have you actually done a test ride? I have. I love the modulation and feedback. They're just flat out better. And the GCN guys who have tested them found that on descents they went faster with discs.

If you don't want disc brakes no one is forcing you. Some of us have done the math and think they're worth it. I agree on your point of vendor lock in - as soon as Specialized has an option that has more hubs than just theirs available I'll jump on that bandwagon. If I bought a Domane disc from Trek right now I could build whatever wheel I want.
I appreciate the GCN comparo, but also found it badly lacking. The major problem is that they chose carbon rims to test rim brakes. What a horrible idea. At least use alu rims in the comparo test.

Also, switch up riders to account for any difference in rider weight.

There are a few other issues but the point is that it's not really a valid comparison.
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