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What is proper nutrition?

Old 09-28-15, 09:17 AM
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What is proper nutrition?

How should you properly eat before and after your rides? I don't seem to be loosing weight, but I feel strong and able to ride faster/harder. I can't tell if that is from eating wrong, or if I'm not in the proper training zone for weight loss, or not doing enough rides.

Situation: Group Ride B Pace Average (15-17 mph, usually in the upper zone), About 50 miles.
Time: 7:30am
In the morning, I get up and ready, eat one Eggo Waffle with honey or nutella.
Drive to meetup: I have a water bottle that I drink as much water as possible from.

During Ride: I have a bottle of water and another of Gatorade. Refill half way, and I usually have drunk half water and half Gatorade. At store stop I eat a Stinger Waffle or some Gels, or some other snack.

After Ride: I feel like a ravenous monster, and I could eat anything, and everything. I know it's bad, but I just really want to eat 12 Chick Fil A Nuggets, a Large Fry, and unsweet tea after. But, even still for the rest of the day, I just feel so empty and find myself snacking, which I don't usually do.

Strava estimated calories after ride: 2,026

(I do track my heart rate as well. On this ride in particular, using Max HR and the zones from 4. When do I use which zone? | Heart rate and power zones for cycling, it would seem I was riding in Tempo and threshold zones. This is also the Sweet Spot according to the website, but I am at the top end (on average) of that space.)
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Old 09-28-15, 09:42 AM
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Everyone has to find out what works for them. My normal routine? I like to ride in the mornings. If starting out by 7:30a, I get up early enough to eat before 5:30a. It's really important to have food in your system that is already processed into energy before you ride. Snarfing down a bagel or waffle just before a ride will do you no good until about 2 hours later...

For short easy rides, I used only water. For longer, more intense rides, I will generally start chewing a Shokboc or some Sports beans, every hour, sometimes on the 1/2 hour (if I am doing some hard climbing). It's really important to keep fuel coming in on a steady basis; once you start to bonk, it's too late.

You appear to be eating enough but maybe you should consider less carbohydrates and more protein before and after the ride. Carbs are OK during the ride. My usual breakfast is one slice of toast with peanut butter (natural no sugar added) and I make a nutrishake (banana, pinapple, blueberries, ginger, spinach, protein powder and water). Again if you are eating just before your ride, then those calories are not used during the ride...you might want to sub the sugar (honey or nutrella) for Peanut butter or some other protein choice (cheese?) instead. You are basically starting your rides with just sugar, which burns off too quickly and causes you to be hungry - the protein last longer and keeps you fueled better). Bottom line - it's all the sugar throwing you off. Also is the Gatorade no-sugar or even more sugar?

Just stuff to think about.
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Old 09-28-15, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cisbrane
How should you properly eat before and after your rides? I don't seem to be loosing weight, but I feel strong and able to ride faster/harder. I can't tell if that is from eating wrong, or if I'm not in the proper training zone for weight loss, or not doing enough rides.

Situation: Group Ride B Pace Average (15-17 mph, usually in the upper zone), About 50 miles.
Time: 7:30am
In the morning, I get up and ready, eat one Eggo Waffle with honey or nutella.
Drive to meetup: I have a water bottle that I drink as much water as possible from.

During Ride: I have a bottle of water and another of Gatorade. Refill half way, and I usually have drunk half water and half Gatorade. At store stop I eat a Stinger Waffle or some Gels, or some other snack.

After Ride: I feel like a ravenous monster, and I could eat anything, and everything. I know it's bad, but I just really want to eat 12 Chick Fil A Nuggets, a Large Fry, and unsweet tea after. But, even still for the rest of the day, I just feel so empty and find myself snacking, which I don't usually do.

Strava estimated calories after ride: 2,026

(I do track my heart rate as well. On this ride in particular, using Max HR and the zones from 4. When do I use which zone? | Heart rate and power zones for cycling, it would seem I was riding in Tempo and threshold zones. This is also the Sweet Spot according to the website, but I am at the top end (on average) of that space.)
When I ride 50 miles, I consume 400 calories worth of gels, each is 100 cal. I always take in one before I leave, and then eat one gel every 40-45 minutes while on the road. When I get home, I am not very hungry. But, I do eat a nice lunch.

On other rides, I stick to the one before I leave and one every 40-45 minute routine like clockwork. I can ride 100 miles without stopping for a lunch that way. I do eat like crazy when I get home on those days though.
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Old 09-28-15, 12:34 PM
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Have you done testing to determine your zones as it states in #3 of your link?

As far as eating what's right.. depends on what type of ride you'll be doing and it's specific to you. Harder rides, Z3/ and up, demand a different fuel than say a Z2 ride which may not require anything other than water. The link sums up fuel types when it talks about

Zone three - tempo:

"The biggest reason for riding in zone three is that it stimulates your body to increase the amount of glycogen it can store (in zone three glycogen usage is starting to overtake fat usage as the primary fuel source)."

To me that says ... Z2 will burn fat while Z3 and above will take carbs to fuel and that's not losing weight. Z2 rides may not require you to want to hire a rodeo clown to keep you out the pantry. I know that works for me.

If you are truly in Z3/Z4 for 50 miles or ~3 hours, and you describe it well when you say you want to eat everyting and everyting, than I'd suspect that you would burn more than what Strave estimates and yes, it's an estimate. 3 hours at tempo/threshold is a big ask on your glycogen stores and you would want to replace those. For me, that type of ride is ~750 Calories/hr and I'd probably eat my everyday breakfast of 2 eggs and 4 pieces of bacon and then a bagel 1 hour before the ride and then a Cliff bar or 2 during the ride and a protein shake or apple after the ride.
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Old 09-28-15, 12:37 PM
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I think most recreational riders are overdoing it with carbs. If you want to lose weight, you have to cut the carbs. Interesting article about how the pros do it... and they stress their bodies much more than recreational riders do:

The Sky diet - Cycling Weekly

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/kn...-Weight-Loss-0
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Old 09-28-15, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by IBOHUNT
Have you done testing to determine your zones as it states in #3 of your link?
Well, I don't have a power meter. It said you can use your Maximum Heart Rate as well to estimate, so I used that, and then I looked at the average heart rate for my ride, and also some specific spots in the ride in a smaller section.

I am usually in the middle or back of group on these types of rides, if I were to be in front I would tire way too fast.

I tried to target a Z2 ride this morning (according to max hr). On that type of ride, I could go for a long time and probably just drink water for most of it. I can't push as hard or fast. I'm guessing I should target more Z2 rides even though I am slower in speed during the week to continue to build my base and loose weight?

After my ride Saturday, I felt fine today to ride again. I usually recover by Monday if I ride hard Saturday.
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Old 09-28-15, 01:53 PM
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Breakfast , one bowl of steel cut oats , banana . On a 50 miles ride bring 2 bottles of water and nothing else . After the ride , lunch . large plate of salad with 3 boiled eggs .
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Old 09-28-15, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cisbrane
Well, I don't have a power meter. It said you can use your Maximum Heart Rate as well to estimate, so I used that, and then I looked at the average heart rate for my ride, and also some specific spots in the ride in a smaller section.
So what method are you using to get your maxHR?
220 - age is a debunked myth. I have a buddy that is 46 and his 60 min peak power HR is 151 or 197 - age. His 20 min peak power HR is 156. Mine is 225 - age. We're all different.

You can use the same FTP test for HR as you can for power. To quote from your link:

To calculate your functional threshold power or your heart rate at anaerobic threshold you need to ride for a little longer. Again, a good warm up is important and then you need a section of road two minutes long. Set off at a pace you feel you can just sustain for 20 minutes (this is probably slightly easier than you think) and aim to hold this intensity for 17 or 18 minutes, at which point give it everything until the end. You need to record your average power and average heart rate for the 20 minutes. To calculate your FTP take the power and multiply it by 0.95. Do the same for your average heart rate to calculate your threshold heart rate.

Originally Posted by cisbrane
I'm guessing I should target more Z2 rides even though I am slower in speed during the week to continue to build my base and loose weight?
That's the generally accepted theory and one which I subscribe to.
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Old 09-28-15, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IBOHUNT
Set off at a pace you feel you can just sustain for 20 minutes (this is probably slightly easier than you think) and aim to hold this intensity for 17 or 18 minutes, at which point give it everything until the end. You need to record your average power and average heart rate for the 20 minutes. To calculate your FTP take the power and multiply it by 0.95. Do the same for your average heart rate to calculate your threshold heart rate.
This is how you get FTP? I'm trying to determine mine today and still trying to get clear on what the ride needs to look like to make it happen.
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Old 09-28-15, 02:29 PM
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A HRM is in my future. I need to target that Z2 and lose this belly. I got hills to climb next spring.

Have you ever calculated the calories you consume based on your list of foods there?
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Old 09-28-15, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Yendor72
A HRM is in my future. I need to target that Z2 and lose this belly. I got hills to climb next spring.

Have you ever calculated the calories you consume based on your list of foods there?
I'm thinking of doing something similar, now that I have over 1000 miles on my bike.

GH
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Old 09-28-15, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
This is how you get FTP? I'm trying to determine mine today and still trying to get clear on what the ride needs to look like to make it happen.
Yep, pretty much

The "book version" of estimating your FTP is to warm up and then do a 20 minute TT, puke, and ride home. Your average power (x .95) will be higher than the best 20 minutes of a two hour + ride.
OR
My 40K Time Trail HR and power not multiplied by anything. There are also 8 minute tests that are supposed to come up with the same value. I'm a traditional 20 minute guy once every 6-8 weeks.
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Old 09-28-15, 02:59 PM
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Sweet, going to go give it a try tonight.
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Old 09-28-15, 03:13 PM
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Is your goal to loose weight? or feel really fresh on the B ride when it speeds up?

IMO I think your eating OK up until you get off the bike. Pick your post ride meal more wisely if you want to drop some weight and get leaner. On bike stuff seems legit, you can only digest 300-400cals per hour so no point eat more than that.

If I make it to my club ride, I'd eat a bagel or pair of pop tarts before I hop on the bike. 200cals of food on bike per hour I pedal. Water bottles have one tablet of NUUN in each. Post ride meals are usually nothing deep fried. Typically brunch style, so a ham & cheese omelet and side of toast w/ a large glass of coke or double latte. I ride to my club ride start, so there is always some type of "bonus miles" to get home.
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Old 09-28-15, 03:20 PM
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#IBOHUNT I think means a twenty minute road.........

Or you can use a workout video designed to calculate FTP/FTHR.
For example The Sufferfest Rubber Glove.
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Old 09-28-15, 03:38 PM
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OP, personally I try not to restrict my diet on the days that I'm doing long rides. I'd rather gain a pound that day than bonk, so I eat what I need to feel good.

The other days, I restrict my calories and drop weight.
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Old 09-28-15, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Black wallnut
#IBOHUNT I think means a twenty minute road.........

Or you can use a workout video designed to calculate FTP/FTHR.
For example The Sufferfest Rubber Glove.
Last winter I did the novice sufferfest training plan. I used the TrainerRoad program to calculate a "power" for my trainer.
Is finding your FTP on the trainer the same for the road? My concern is with how much pressure you put up on your tire vs. what is really on the road?

Any way, last winter was tough, though about half way it felt to get a little easier. I haven't done a new FTP test yet. Unfortunately, I don't have a power meter I can use on the road. Cost is prohibitive right now. I should redo the test on my trainer and get the HR value from that.
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Old 09-28-15, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by IBOHUNT
So what method are you using to get your maxHR?
220 - age is a debunked myth. I have a buddy that is 46 and his 60 min peak power HR is 151 or 197 - age. His 20 min peak power HR is 156. Mine is 225 - age. We're all different.

You can use the same FTP test for HR as you can for power. To quote from your link:

To calculate your functional threshold power or your heart rate at anaerobic threshold you need to ride for a little longer. Again, a good warm up is important and then you need a section of road two minutes long. Set off at a pace you feel you can just sustain for 20 minutes (this is probably slightly easier than you think) and aim to hold this intensity for 17 or 18 minutes, at which point give it everything until the end. You need to record your average power and average heart rate for the 20 minutes. To calculate your FTP take the power and multiply it by 0.95. Do the same for your average heart rate to calculate your threshold heart rate.



That's the generally accepted theory and one which I subscribe to.
195 feels to be my MAX -- I hit this on steep hills and it is where I feel like I am having issue balance, thinking, etc. I never want to be at that value. I have to stop pedaling and recover when I get that.

I need to redo my sufferfest video for the FTP. My concern is if doing it on the trainer is the same as doing it on the road. Maybe it won't matter for heart rate.

My other concern is if the number turns out lower than expected, what that means for rides I am doing. Is doing a ride at too high of a heart rate bad? As I've read more, I won't seem to loose weight at that range, but I find the rides challenging and fun when I am trying to keep the pace more than what I would do alone. So, I don't think it's bad to do a high intensity ride at least once every saturday.
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Old 09-28-15, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain
I think most recreational riders are overdoing it with carbs. If you want to lose weight, you have to cut the carbs. Interesting article about how the pros do it... and they stress their bodies much more than recreational riders do:

The Sky diet - Cycling Weekly

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/kn...-Weight-Loss-0
I read both of those and they both highly advocate lots of fruits and vegetables. THe second one says that an absolute minimum should be 5 servings of fruit and five servings of vegetables everyday and to eat more whenever possible. Doesn't sound like they are telling anyone to cut carbs. They seem to advocate more of a dietary balance than anything.

I hate seeing alot of you guys doing the 85%-90% fat or whatever diets out there with 4 carbs a day. I read a lot on here where people say they are feeling good on it and what not, but replacing all that fat with carbs and not putting such a strong emphasis on protein (30g whey shakes x3 etc.) would be much more sustainable in the long run and you get to eat wayyyy more food every day due to the low calorie nature of fruits and vegetables.

As a point of reference, I was 246 pounds 1 year ago. I am 205 lbs today and just finally broke under 1 hour on a 40KM TT this past Sunday.

It's good that we find what works for us as individuals, but I don't think super hi fat/cholesterol/etc diets are a great long term solution. It will always leave your brain craving, same as if you ate 90% protein or 90% carbs every day. It's off kilter.
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Old 09-28-15, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cisbrane
195 feels to be my MAX -- I hit this on steep hills and it is where I feel like I am having issue balance, thinking, etc. I never want to be at that value. I have to stop pedaling and recover when I get that.

I need to redo my sufferfest video for the FTP. My concern is if doing it on the trainer is the same as doing it on the road. Maybe it won't matter for heart rate.

My other concern is if the number turns out lower than expected, what that means for rides I am doing. Is doing a ride at too high of a heart rate bad? As I've read more, I won't seem to loose weight at that range, but I find the rides challenging and fun when I am trying to keep the pace more than what I would do alone. So, I don't think it's bad to do a high intensity ride at least once every saturday.
A number isn't a 'feels like'. Its a value that you arrive at through testing.
Nothing is written that you have to perform the test on a trainer indoors and yes, the number may be different outdoors versus indoor for various reasons especially, imho, just looking at HR.
High intensity work, VO2max, sweet spot or other intervals, are great things to do and they will improve your performance. A good article to read is from Fast Cat regarding Sweet Spot and other high intensity work. Although it's written for power numbers you can translate it into HR zones.

As was told to me when I was ridding with what now is a team mate....
Make you hard rides hard and your easy rides stupid easy. You can't lift a table from the top - which means you can't raise your FTP by always ridding hard, you need recovery periods. Every training plan I've ever looked at is made up of blocks and has "rest" weeks in them.

Keep reading, ride a lot and you'll figure out what your body demands.
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Old 09-28-15, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Hawk
As a point of reference, I was 246 pounds 1 year ago. I am 205 lbs today and just finally broke under 1 hour on a 40KM TT this past Sunday.
Congrats. That's a tough nut to crack and there are many folks that will never see that
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Old 09-28-15, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Hawk
I read both of those and they both highly advocate lots of fruits and vegetables. THe second one says that an absolute minimum should be 5 servings of fruit and five servings of vegetables everyday and to eat more whenever possible. Doesn't sound like they are telling anyone to cut carbs. They seem to advocate more of a dietary balance than anything.

I hate seeing alot of you guys doing the 85%-90% fat or whatever diets out there with 4 carbs a day. I read a lot on here where people say they are feeling good on it and what not, but replacing all that fat with carbs and not putting such a strong emphasis on protein (30g whey shakes x3 etc.) would be much more sustainable in the long run and you get to eat wayyyy more food every day due to the low calorie nature of fruits and vegetables.

As a point of reference, I was 246 pounds 1 year ago. I am 205 lbs today and just finally broke under 1 hour on a 40KM TT this past Sunday.

It's good that we find what works for us as individuals, but I don't think super hi fat/cholesterol/etc diets are a great long term solution. It will always leave your brain craving, same as if you ate 90% protein or 90% carbs every day. It's off kilter.
No, you don't cut out carbs all the way. However, the carbs you need should come from fruits and vegetables. When the pro's are training in the off season to get back to riding weight the fruits and vegetables are of the low carb variety - broccoli, green beans, lettuce, cucumbers, cauliflower, etc. The riders are not loading up on potatoes, beans, corn, legumes, peas, carrots, squash, and yams. Same with fruit, you can make lower carb choices there: apricots, strawberries, grapefruit, blackberries, peaches. Eating high carb processed foods, energy bars, and drinking high sugar sports drinks aren't really part of a proper weight loss diet - but, it's really good marketing that is making a lot of "weekend warriors" fat.

I have a friend that races with a team. He's got the diet down for getting back to racing weight. It's not easy. He says there are only a certain number of ways that you can cook eggs, chicken breast, broccoli, and cauliflower. It's better to work on cutting the weight before you start training hard. It's tough to do both well at the same time. However, most of us in this forum aren't on a strict timetable, are we? One pound a week would be very satisfactory for me, and I think I could still train to get this fat body back to a fit body (It may take a year or two... but, that's fine.)

If you have the time to put in to ride a lot of miles then you probably don't have to watch what you eat so closely. However, I know very few people that have that kind of time. My job is very low energy - great for recovery, but bad for weight loss.

Congrats on the 40km TT. I don't know a lot about racing. That seems like a pretty good pace for that distance. Are TT courses generally flat? It would make sense that they are since I see TT bikes that are aero and not really great bikes for climbing.

Last edited by InTheRain; 09-28-15 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 09-28-15, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain
One pound a week would be very satisfactory for me, and I think I could still train to get this fat body back to a fit body (It may take a year or two... but, that's fine.)

If you have the time to put in to ride a lot of miles then you probably don't have to watch what you eat so closely. However, I know very few people that have that kind of time. My job is very low energy - great for recovery, but bad for weight loss.

Congrats on the 40km TT. I don't know a lot about racing. That seems like a pretty good pace for that distance. Are TT courses generally flat? It would make sense that they are since I see TT bikes that are aero and not really great bikes for climbing.

As far as 1 pound a week, It should be easy to maintain that. I dropped 40 pounds in 1 year, so not even 1 pound per week. I have always been avid running and cycling guy, but two kids in the last 3 years hit me hard in the lazy belt. I keep eating like I was running 100 miles a month and I gained that 40 pounds over about 2 years.

One of the most important parts about changing your diet to help with weight loss is that people forget how LONG it is going to take to get X number of pounds off. We are really impatient and can easily give up, even after losing the first 10 or something. I see it all over the place.

As far as having time to ride more, I started riding my bike to work everyday. It gets me 100+ miles a week and I have my weekends off if I want with the family and not even thinking about the bike as a barrier to my fitness/weight goals. I sold my car, so I have to ride the bike if I want a job, haha.

The TT course was very flat. 4 small hills up for about 375ft elevation gain over 25~ miles.
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Old 09-28-15, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cisbrane
How should you properly eat ....... I don't seem to be loosing weight,....... I can't tell if that is from eating wrong, or if I'm not in the proper training zone for weight loss.......
Interesting. When I was a child it was the children in India that were starving to death. Later it was the children in Ethiopia... then Africa that were starving to death. often by the millions. I really don't believe that millions of children have starved to death in my lifetime.... simply because their parents foolishly let them ride their bicycles too much.

Exercise (in absence hard work) is necessary for fitness and good health. And with the abundance of delicious foods found in 1st world nations today exercise is helpful with weight loss as well.

But be assured... our weight is directly related to the amount of food we consume.
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Old 09-29-15, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Interesting. When I was a child it was the children in India that were starving to death. Later it was the children in Ethiopia... then Africa that were starving to death. often by the millions. I really don't believe that millions of children have starved to death in my lifetime.... simply because their parents foolishly let them ride their bicycles too much.

Exercise (in absence hard work) is necessary for fitness and good health. And with the abundance of delicious foods found in 1st world nations today exercise is helpful with weight loss as well.

But be assured... our weight is directly related to the amount of food we consume.
I'm not sure that I agree that the "amount" of food is directly related to weight. I have a co-worker that consumes a huge volume of food. However, the most significant portion of that consumed food is in the form of low carb or non-starchy vegetables. It's unbelievable how much broccoli, lettuce, kale, cucumbers, cauliflower, and other healthy veges a person can eat and not be concerned about gaining weight. My co-worker also runs between 30-40 miles per week. Lost about 40 lbs (150 lbs to 110 lbs) in the past two years. A slow and steady transformation.
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