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H Plus Son Archetype?

Old 12-04-15, 08:52 PM
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illusiumd
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H Plus Son Archetype?

Anyone ride H Plus Son Archetype? I was thinking Dyad for a clyde commuter wheelset, but an LBS I went to wants me to look in to H Plus, he says "I would do a 4 cross drive side & 3 cross non-drive, and 3 cross on the front with an H Plus..."
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Old 12-04-15, 10:52 PM
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Yes. I have put over 1000 miles on a pair laced up to 32h Shimano 105 Hubs and they've been flawless. I've hovered around 250lbs, give or take 7 lbs during this time.
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Old 12-05-15, 05:03 AM
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They are very good, durable, stiff, affordable rims. I have a set and they have been excellent. I am about 275lbs so I'm extremely hard on rear wheels and I've had zero issues over the 800 miles I've put on them in three months. I've broken spokes in less time on cheap wheels. I have no experience with Dyads but I've built up multiple sets with Velocity Deep Vs and they were similarly excellent. I'm sure either rim will be fine but aesthetically the Archetypes are the winner in my book.
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Old 12-05-15, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brownfield View Post
They are very good, durable, stiff, affordable rims. I have a set and they have been excellent. I am about 275lbs so I'm extremely hard on rear wheels and I've had zero issues over the 800 miles I've put on them in three months. I've broken spokes in less time on cheap wheels. I have no experience with Dyads but I've built up multiple sets with Velocity Deep Vs and they were similarly excellent. I'm sure either rim will be fine but aesthetically the Archetypes are the winner in my book.
Sweet! Yeah I want to go this route - my A23s have given me nothing but trouble so want to avoid anything Velocity and the A719 so heavy. Plus they look cool
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Old 12-05-15, 10:01 AM
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I don't know if I'd be exactly happy with the wear on the anodized Archetype sidewalls from rim brakes, bit if you're disc, that's not an issue.
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Old 12-05-15, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
Sweet! Yeah I want to go this route - my A23s have given me nothing but trouble so want to avoid anything Velocity and the A719 so heavy. Plus they look cool
Who built up the A23's? Hopefully not the same shop that wants to sell you the H Plus... My experience with Velocity is they make good rims but they have also had their problems. Have you given Velocity an opportunity to fix your issues? H Plus.. make good rims too and although I've not used them I know many who have and are using them. I'm not sure about going 4 cross by 3 cross but the pattern is not even close to as important as the right spokes and the build. Let us know how they work out for you.
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Old 12-05-15, 12:05 PM
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I'm currently running two, fully Velocity built wheelsets, an Aerohead OC set, and Blunt set. Both have been excellent over the years I've owned them, and I can recommend Velocity wheels without any reservations whatsoever.

To condemn Velocity based on someone else's build-up of their rims is probably unfair, unless there's some compelling evidence to fault a rim itself rather than the other components and builder's work quality, both of which are far more likely to be sources of bad wheel experiences than the rim itself.
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Old 12-05-15, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I don't know if I'd be exactly happy with the wear on the anodized Archetype sidewalls from rim brakes, bit if you're disc, that's not an issue.
Not really a big deal, but I wish they just machined the sidewalls on them after anodizing. They end up looking like the attached image. Otherwise they're great rims, much higher quality, IMHO, than my Velocity Deep-V rims which have a very obvious seam in them that can cause braking judder due to a slight lip. I can't tell you where the rim is joined on my Archetypes.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
image.jpg (96.1 KB, 423 views)

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Old 12-05-15, 03:39 PM
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Sorry I don't want to condem Velocity - it's entirely the builder's fault and my fault for not avoiding that monster pothole! - I didn't want to imply that it was the rim's fault. So I've had problems with an A23, had problems a couple years ago with a Mavic rim so just wish to try something different. Every one keeps saying the same three rims for clyde: Dyad, Deep V, A719 - just want something different - don't really have a good justification other than the Archetype looks somewhat cool -- . Not very thorough here in my thought process at the moment

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Old 12-05-15, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Not really a big deal, but I wish they just machined the sidewalls on them after anodizing. They end up looking like the attached image. Otherwise they're great rims, much higher quality, IMHO, than my Velocity Deep-V rims which have a very obvious seam in them that can cause braking judder due to a slight lip. I can't tell you where the rim is joined on my Archetypes.

So weird - if it weren't for this one issue I would have already bought this wheel... what is their thinking on this? How long does it take before it comes off?

Last edited by illusiumd; 12-05-15 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 12-05-15, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Black wallnut View Post
Who built up the A23's? Hopefully not the same shop that wants to sell you the H Plus...
No different LBS. New LBS does excellent work and I trust them but they're expensive - they want 250 to build new wheel with old hub - seems like I could get a new wheelset for slightly more. But- they said they'd stand by their build for three years and considering the problems I've had that might be a wise investment.
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Old 12-05-15, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
So weird - if it weren't for this one issue I would have already bought this wheel... what is their thinking on this? How long does it take before it comes off?
I don't know. The photo I posted is my rear wheel (currently off the bike as its on the trainer) after 1000 miles of riding. Some of the anondizing is still there, but it's mostly gone. I don't think it's a big deal honestly and I think the rims are really excellent and like their wideness. I should say that the Deep-Vs are my main wheelset though. I'm toying with the idea of replacing them in the new year with something wide like the Archetypes, maybe a Pacenti SL23.
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Old 12-05-15, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
Anyone ride H Plus Son Archetype? I was thinking Dyad for a clyde commuter wheelset, but an LBS I went to wants me to look in to H Plus, he says "I would do a 4 cross drive side & 3 cross non-drive, and 3 cross on the front with an H Plus..."
I have a wheelset with the Archetype rims and I couldn't be happier. The key is a good builder and quality spokes. I used an Ultegra hub, 32 spokes front/rear and 1.8 DT Swiss double-butted spokes. I am 250# and they have 3,000 miles on them. The wheels have been flawless and I have abused them on several poor quality roads without a single problem. The anodizing does wear as you get dirt in the break pads - nearly impossible to avoid.

My previous wheelset used a Velocity Deep V rim and they too were great. I believe the wider Archetypes are better as they seem to provide better handling in speedy turns and I run at a little lower tire pressure.
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Old 12-05-15, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jwramseier View Post
I have a wheelset with the Archetype rims and I couldn't be happier. The key is a good builder and quality spokes. I used an Ultegra hub, 32 spokes front/rear and 1.8 DT Swiss double-butted spokes. I am 250# and they have 3,000 miles on them. The wheels have been flawless and I have abused them on several poor quality roads without a single problem. The anodizing does wear as you get dirt in the break pads - nearly impossible to avoid.
Good to hear!

I had an LBS that I like give me a quote today - 250 for just the rear (using my old hub) and I think I'm going to do it - but I was disappointed they tried to talk me into straight gauge and not double butted - although I'm sure I can insist on double butted.

Also looking at Velomine who's got a 32h Archetype wheelset for 220 but that's with 105 hubs and straight gauge. Kind of thinking I should go 36h considering how many potholes I run into city commuting.

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Old 12-05-15, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
Good to hear!

I had an LBS that I like give me a quote today - 250 for just the rear (using my old hub) and I think I'm going to do it - but I was disappointed they tried to talk me into straight gauge and not double butted - although I'm sure I can insist on double butted.

Also looking at Velomine who's got a 32h Archetype wheelset for 220 but that's with 105 hubs and straight gauge. Kind of thinking I should go 36h considering how many potholes I run into city commuting.
That quote you got, $250 for a rim +spokes +labor sounds too high. You should insist on a well-built wheel but even generously allowing $130 for rim and spokes, you're being charged $120 labor to build one wheel. That's about double the going rate.
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Old 12-05-15, 10:38 PM
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These are the ones I own. Except they're the older 10 speed 105 hubs.

H Plus Son Archetype Wheelset Shimano 5800 105 Hubs 8-11 Speed [74351] - $219.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike
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Old 12-05-15, 10:58 PM
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Oh yeah. High shine silver laced to Suzue Road Classica hubs. Fantastic, light lively ride. Go for it.
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Old 12-06-15, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
That quote you got, $250 for a rim +spokes +labor sounds too high. You should insist on a well-built wheel but even generously allowing $130 for rim and spokes, you're being charged $120 labor to build one wheel. That's about double the going rate.
Yes it's the city and it's the LBS where all the weight weenies with $ to spend go - but they do good work and are actually enthusiastic about bikes - compared with alot of shops in Chicago where the mechs are bored out of their minds and half listen to what you're telling them.

If I were under 200 and I was riding nice pavement I would go for Velomine 32h - I've heard nothing but good things. But I'm over 220 and riding nasty Chicago winter streets. Also am just coming off a year of frustration with a 36h A23 because of an inferior build. I think the quote is high but then I own the shop for a while and I can get it trued whenever I want.

Other option I'm considering is sending the hub to PowerWheelBuilder.com and doing a 36h/3 cross. Their site quoted me something like 160 - but with all the shipping and not having a wheel for a while - wonder if it'd be a wash anyhow.

My God, the mulling I'm doing on this - I wish I could get as obsessed over mutual funds or web programming.
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Old 12-06-15, 01:51 PM
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I assume you mean under 200lbs OR rode on nice pavement. I'm 250lbs and the Velomine wheels are solid, but I'll admit the roads around here are decent.
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Old 12-06-15, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
I assume you mean under 200lbs OR rode on nice pavement. I'm 250lbs and the Velomine wheels are solid, but I'll admit the roads around here are decent.
Sorry yes - "or" nice pavement.
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Old 12-07-15, 03:22 PM
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I'm a bit over 250 lbs and ride on some rough roads at times. After having rear rim failures failures on both the stock crap (Oval) and some Mavic Ksyriums, I went with H+Son SL42 (28f/36r) and White Industries hubs. They have been bullet proof. I am very happy with them.
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Old 12-07-15, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
No different LBS. New LBS does excellent work and I trust them but they're expensive - they want 250 to build new wheel with old hub - seems like I could get a new wheelset for slightly more. But- they said they'd stand by their build for three years and considering the problems I've had that might be a wise investment.
Found this just after dropping a comment on your other Dyad thread in Commuting. Seems high to me as well, for comparison, 3 years ago I paid $400 for brand-new custom-built Dyad/105 with 32 3x butted spokes each. And that was from a shop in La Jolla, which is a very ritzy area. So $250 for one wheel and you provide the hub, seems like a lot.

Also, I am skeptical of crazy lacing patterns, why deviate from 3x? If even more strength is desired than 36 spokes can give, why not go offset in the rear to reduce dish and even out DS/NDS tensions? (And I really doubt that anybody under 400lbs needs more than 32 spokes in the front.)
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Old 12-17-15, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
Anyone ride H Plus Son Archetype? I was thinking Dyad for a clyde commuter wheelset, but an LBS I went to wants me to look in to H Plus, he says "I would do a 4 cross drive side & 3 cross non-drive, and 3 cross on the front with an H Plus..."
The HPS Archetype is our go-to rim for riders over 200 pounds at our shop, but stay away from anyone who is talking about building up some combo-pattern weird-ass lacing for a commuter wheel. Standard 3-cross with either 14/15 db or 14g straight spokes is plenty enough. Ask him what the structural benefit of a 4-cross drive side over a 3-cross is, and see what BS they come up with; because hub dependent, a 4-cross pattern can put higher stress on the spokes at the elbow as the first cross tends to be spoke-over-head.
We build 3-cross Archetypes on DT 240s for 225 pound road racers, and they don't have any problems with them.
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Old 12-17-15, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by illusiumd View Post
Sweet! Yeah I want to go this route - my A23s have given me nothing but trouble so want to avoid anything Velocity and the A719 so heavy. Plus they look cool
As a 19mm deep 452 gram rim, the Velocity A23 is not a good choice for Clydestales. More weight on top requires more stiffness to avoid bending on road obstacles, from additional depth (with beam stiffness proportional to the cube of depth a 30mm rim is 3.9X stiffer than a 19mm one) and/or material.

Clydestales also unload the spokes more with each revolution, which is more likely to allow nipples to unscrew in under-tensioned wheels and to break spokes where they haven't been stress relieved. If you didn't bend your A23s your problems are due to the builder not the rims.

While you should avoid the A23 and whoever built those wheels, there's nothing inherently wrong with Velocity durability.

With speed up the steepest hills essentially inversely proportional to total weight, the extra 220 grams of weight from 565g A719s over 455g rims like the A23 costs a 200 pound rider on a 20 pound bike at most 8 seconds an hour which isn't enough to matter. The impact of rotating mass doubles as you approach the road surface, although at 0.4% that's not enough to matter even in a criterium where only a tiny fraction of total energy is spent accelerating out of corners.
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Old 12-17-15, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Not really a big deal, but I wish they just machined the sidewalls on them after anodizing. They end up looking like the attached image. Otherwise they're great rims, much higher quality, IMHO, than my Velocity Deep-V rims which have a very obvious seam in them that can cause braking judder due to a slight lip.

You can remove the lip with a file or stone.

I neglected to look closely enough at the Velocity Fusion I built into my most recent front wheel and ended up with a lip, although it only took a few minutes to fix for smooth and silent braking.
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