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Steel or carbon? Rivendell philosophy or??

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Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) Looking to lose that spare tire? Ideal weight 200+? Frustrated being a large cyclist in a sport geared for the ultra-light? Learn about the bikes and parts that can take the abuse of a heavier cyclist, how to keep your body going while losing the weight, and get support from others who've been successful.

Steel or carbon? Rivendell philosophy or??

Old 05-25-16, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by birru
Total Bike Forums newbie here (this is my 2nd post!) but I'd say maybe take a look at the Jamis Quest Elite. The 56cm I tried weighed 21lbs including test ride pedals. About $1800 with a Reynolds 631 steel frame and a Shimano 105 groupset. The brakes are out of group, but I think that's mainly for wider tire clearance. Overall I found it to be an awesome bike with a smooth ride.
The Jamis Quest series are great bikes. My buddy has one and loves it.
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Old 05-25-16, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
The Jamis Quest series are great bikes. My buddy has one and loves it.
Yep, I rode with a guy last night who has a Jamis Quest Elite and he had nothing but good things to say about the bike. Looked pretty sweet as well.

BTW I was involved in a pretty nasty crash last night on my Ritchey, I'm a bit bent up but apart from some scuffing on the hoods, you wouldn't know the bike was part of that crash. If I believed a lot of what people wrote on BF about "modern steel" the bike should be dented ("easily dented" is a common complaint I've read about modern light steel frames) or crushed like a soda can.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:27 AM
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Dang, sorry to hear that. Hope you and the bike are all good.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
Downsides... let's see. It's slightly heavier than aluminum or carbon fiber these days. It can rust if left outside, but lots of frames are coming with ED coating these days negating that. Harder to find is definitely a downside. Those are about the only ones I can think of.
The OP can't afford high-end exotic steel alloys, so the disadvantages of a 4130/chromly steel frame are:

- It weighs more than an aluminum or carbon frame
- It's more flexible than an aluminum or steel frame
- It can rust from the inside out unless stored in a climate-controlled environment (ex: not a garage) or treated with a rust preventative (ex: Weigle's Frame Saver), which most manufacturers and shops leave to the purchaser
- They can be difficult to find (since the majority of the bike industry has abandoned this material)
- They're over-priced given the cost of the materials and the ease of manufacture

Here are a couple of pics about the weight thing:

This is a cutting edge, latest and greatest, $5600, size 56 Specialized Roubaix that has a max weight limit of 240 lbs and will likely be an outdated design in a couple of years. This is the type of road bike a dealer will put a 250 lb rider on if they walked into their store:

This is my considerably less expensive, size 58 steel bike with a heavier groupset on it:
These photos are a terrific example of your lack of objectivity when it comes to steel bikes! Just so everyone is clear, this "steel" bike is similar in weight to the carbon bike because:

- It doesn't have pedals installed (250-350g advantage)
- Its SRAM Rival components are lighter than the Ultegra Di2 components on the Roubaix (200-700g advantage, depending on whose scale you trust)
- It's using rim brakes rather than hydraulic disc brakes (200-400g advantage)
- It's using a high-end, light-weight carbon fiber fork (500-1000g advantage over a steel fork)

Do an apples-to-apples comparison without a fork swap and the "steel" bike ends up with a 1-2 pound weight advantage due to component selection. Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork which means gaining another 1-2 pounds of weight (2-4 total).
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Old 05-25-16, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
- Its SRAM Rival components are lighter than the Ultegra Di2 components on the Roubaix (200-700g advantage, depending on whose scale you trust)
I think you might be getting Rival mixed up with SRAM Red or Force. The Rival groupset weighs more than Ultegra, not by much 0.1-0.2lbs depending on whether GXP or BB30, @Jarrett2's will be GXP. Of course the Roubaix doesn't have full Ultegra groupset...

EDIT: OK, so I missed this "Di2" part, yes the Di2 Ultegra is very slightly heavier than the Rival groupset, by <0.1 lbs.
- It's using a high-end, light-weight carbon fiber fork (500-1000g advantage over a steel fork)
Yep, so does my road bike. A 330g CF fork in fact. Many steel road bikes use CF forks, just like aluminum road bikes do. In fact, if you're going to recommend an aluminum road bike, a CF fork is a must over an aluminum one!

Do an apples-to-apples comparison without a fork swap and the "steel" bike ends up with a 1-2 pound weight advantage due to component selection. Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork which means gaining another 1-2 pounds of weight (2-4 total).
So does adding lead weights under the saddle. The fact is my steel road bike weighs about the same as @Jarrett2's, and my fellow riders often talk about it like "oh I'd like a steel bike but I like my lightweight CF too much". Then I ask them to lift my my bike and their bike, and they're surprised by the major lack of difference in weight.

BTW regarding "Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork", I bet the OP can afford this steel road bike with a CF fork:

Save Up To 60% Off Pro Level Steel Road Bikes | Commuting | Commuter Bikes | Motobecane Gran Premio PRO

Last edited by dr_lha; 05-25-16 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
The OP can't afford...
There is so much wrong in storkel's last post, I'm not going to waste time explaining it all again. I just noticed dr_lha handled it

OP, the bikes are out there in the $1,200 to $2,000 as you mentioned. You'll likely have to spend over $2,000 to get under 20 lbs on a steel bike, but that weight difference really doesn't matter if you are not competing on some level.

As mentioned earlier, that Jamis Quest Elite is a great bike for the price. There are others out there as well in the Surly, All-City, Kona, Salsa world at that price range. I suspect they will server you better than trying to find a carbon fiber bike in that price range.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Old 05-25-16, 07:49 PM
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I think everyone is getting too wound up over frame materials. To the OP, just go ride a bunch of bikes in your size that are designed for what you hope to do (long rides, race, gravel, whatever). Pick the one that feels best to YOU. There is no ultimate "best" material or bike, just what works for you or doesn't.

I went out bike shopping a couple of months ago, pretty sure I was going to end up on steel, but ended up on a Specialized Diverge Comp (carbon). Rode it and absolutely fell in love with it. Went away for a week, rode other things, then came back and took the Diverge out again for a longer ride. Tried to talk myself out of it (because of the price) but really loved the bike (and it was on sale), so I bought it. You should do something similar: buy a bike that you just love to ride and not worry about who thinks what material is best.
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Old 05-25-16, 08:22 PM
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I mentioned the Jamis Quest because it seemed to meet the BrazAd's parameters, but bransom is 100% right. I rode a variety of bikes from different brands in different materials before deciding on the Jamis Renegade Expert (CF). There are just so many design decisions that factor into how a bike feels. I had certain preconceived notions from doing research on paper, but once in the saddle I got a proper education. I experienced harsh steel, relatively supple aluminum alloy, both "dead" and responsive carbon fiber. It's also the reason I'd be hesitant to buy a bike online that I haven't ridden, no matter how good the deal looks. BrazAd, maybe book a weekend in Atlanta or Tallahassee and just ride as many bikes as you possibly can. Either that or there's a business opportunity to open your own shop in Albany.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:08 PM
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Even more to the point, whatever you buy as your first bike is highly unlikely to be the one you end up sticking with. Just get something you like in your budget and get riding. Over time, your tastes will evolve and change and you may end up on something different. Your budget is totally reasonable for a first bike so buy something you think is cool and enjoy it in good health.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha
EDIT: OK, so I missed this "Di2" part, yes the Di2 Ultegra is very slightly heavier than the Rival groupset, by <0.1 lbs.
I think that's only true if you believe the manufacturer's lies. In the real world, the weight difference is a half-pound or more, not the tenth of a pound you're claiming. I installed Ultegra Di2 on my road bike and it's heavy! Definitely weighs more than 105; I wouldn't be surprised if it was around the same weight as Tiagra. Even if the component weights are identical, the steel bike is still missing hydraulic disc brakes, pedals, and a bottle cage. Until you add that extra stuff to the steel bike, you're not doing an apples to apples comparison so suggesting the weights are similar is decidedly dishonest...

Yep, so does my road bike. A 330g CF fork in fact. Many steel road bikes use CF forks, just like aluminum road bikes do. In fact, if you're going to recommend an aluminum road bike, a CF fork is a must over an aluminum one!
If you want to argue that steel is competitive, weight-wise, against carbon then you should compare the weight of a steel fork on a steel bike against the weight of a carbon fork on a carbon bike. Saying that you have to add a carbon fork to your steel frame to make its weight competitive is admitting defeat.

BTW regarding "Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork", I bet the OP can afford this steel road bike with a CF fork:

Save Up To 60% Off Pro Level Steel Road Bikes | Commuting | Commuter Bikes | Motobecane Gran Premio PRO
I doubt the OP is going to find a BikesDirect bike at his local bike shop.

Which steel drop-bar road bikes available at an LBS include a carbon fork? Specialized, Felt and Cannondale don't seem to sell any steel road bikes. Trek and Felt sell steel touring bikes, which come with steel forks. REI's Novara line-up include three steel bikes (Safari, Mazama, Randonee) all of which include steel forks. Jamis is about the only option for a steel frame that comes standard with a carbon fork. The Quest Elite and Quest Comp are possibilities, though it looks like the closest Jamis dealer is over an hour from the OP.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tunavic
OP, purchase a quality bike and don't worry about the material it's made of too much. It really makes little difference when other factors are just as important if not more so. Wheels, tires and more are what you should look into more than steel or not steel.
^This
Try to find A good bike shop that knows how to fit you to the type of bicycle you want to ride.Lots of good info on the web.

I'm 6'3" about 230lb and like to ride about 40 to 50 miles rides on the road about 3 or 4 times A week.And I ride my single speed or hybrid around town.My favorite bikes are CF(Scott) and aluminum(Orbea) for my road bikes.And my single speed is steel.Have A Ti bicycle that I bought A few months ago,but still building it up.I do not worry about my weight on light bikes.My Giant TCR is over 12 years old and is about 15 or 16 lbs.Never A problem with any of my light frames.

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Old 05-25-16, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
Which steel drop-bar road bikes available at an LBS include a carbon fork? Specialized, Felt and Cannondale don't seem to sell any steel road bikes. Trek and Felt sell steel touring bikes, which come with steel forks. REI's Novara line-up include three steel bikes (Safari, Mazama, Randonee) all of which include steel forks. Jamis is about the only option for a steel frame that comes standard with a carbon fork. The Quest Elite and Quest Comp are possibilities, though it looks like the closest Jamis dealer is over an hour from the OP.
Based on my limited knowledge the Jamis Quest Elite sort of stands alone as far as a light/not heavy steel road bike with a carbon fiber fork. The Fairdale Goodship REALLY interested me, but I had zero luck finding a shop that carried it less than a couple of hours away. It's also expensive. The Lemond Washoe looks hot too, but you'll never find that in a shop. And it's even more expensive. There are plenty of other steel road bikes with CF forks, but based on my limited knowledge they're all a pound or two heavier, but not enough to bother me personally: Kona Roadhouse, Salsa Colossal, Raleigh Grand Vitesse, Bianchi Vigorelli (carbon blades).
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Old 05-26-16, 07:20 AM
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One thing that hasn't been touched on. If you need local bike shop support after your purchase, it might be best to just buy what they are selling.

Early on, I had to go to the bike shop to get flats changed. And when a spoke would break, they would replace it for free on bikes I bought from them.

Now, I'm building my own bikes from the frame up and feel comfortable ordering parts from across the globe to do so. It doesn't bother me that my local bikes shops don't carry what I want as I'm doing my own maintenance.

So if you are early on in your riding and wrenching experience, it might be best to just buy what is closest to you for the added support and warranty.
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Old 05-26-16, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
I think that's only true if you believe the manufacturer's lies.
I was basing that off a website where they had weighed the groups. Whatever.


If you want to argue that steel is competitive, weight-wise, against carbon then you should compare the weight of a steel fork on a steel bike against the weight of a carbon fork on a carbon bike. Saying that you have to add a carbon fork to your steel frame to make its weight competitive is admitting defeat.
No more so than adding a carbon fork to an aluminum bike is "admitting defeat" over the idea that aluminum is a harsh and unforgiving riding frame. Also I never said that steel is competitive with CF, just that the "4-5 lbs heaver with the same components" isn't true, except maybe if you have a steel fork also. Most high end road bikes (remember this argument kicked off because of comparisons with a $4500 Specialized) won't have a steel fork.

I doubt the OP is going to find a BikesDirect bike at his local bike shop.
He's not going to find a Rivendell either, but he brought it up.

Which steel drop-bar road bikes available at an LBS include a carbon fork? Specialized, Felt and Cannondale don't seem to sell any steel road bikes. Trek and Felt sell steel touring bikes, which come with steel forks. REI's Novara line-up include three steel bikes (Safari, Mazama, Randonee) all of which include steel forks. Jamis is about the only option for a steel frame that comes standard with a carbon fork. The Quest Elite and Quest Comp are possibilities, though it looks like the closest Jamis dealer is over an hour from the OP.
Yes, if you read a my post in earlier in the thread, I made this exact point, the problem with steel bikes is their scarcity, especially for the OP.

I'm lucky in that I have 3 LBSs in my town, one is a Gunnar and Jamis dealer, another is a Waterford dealer, another sells All-City, Surly, Salsa so I'm surrounded by choices for steel bikes locally (which must be why I bought two frame online!!)

But this thread has devolved into the usual frame material argument, far from what the OP originally was asking hasn't it?
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Old 05-26-16, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha
"4-5 lbs heaver with the same components" isn't true, except maybe if you have a steel fork also.
Sounds like we agree. I guess you didn't bother to read the last paragraph of my post? The one where I said, "Do an apples-to-apples comparison without a fork swap and the "steel" bike ends up with a 1-2 pound weight advantage due to component selection. Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork which means gaining another 1-2 pounds of weight (2-4 total)."

But this thread has devolved into the usual frame material argument, far from what the OP originally was asking hasn't it?
I think it's important that the OP understand when he's being misled, and the pictures of the Roubaix/Gunnar comparison were definitely misleading since no mention was made of the missing components nor the differences in component selection. Let's also not forget that while the "considerably less expensive" description is accurate, the Gunnar is still way out of the OP's price range. His budget would allow purchase of a Gunnar frame and Enve fork... but he couldn't afford the wheels and components necessary to turn it into a working bicycle.
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Old 05-26-16, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
I think it's important that the OP understand when he's being misled, and the pictures of the Roubaix/Gunnar comparison were definitely misleading since no mention was made of the missing components nor the differences in component selection. Let's also not forget that while the "considerably less expensive" description is accurate, the Gunnar is still way out of the OP's price range. His budget would allow purchase of a Gunnar frame and Enve fork... but he couldn't afford the wheels and components necessary to turn it into a working bicycle.
He's not being misled. He asked about steel and carbon fiber bikes. Those are two examples and what they weigh. The only reason I posted that is because you said steel bike are 4-5 lbs heavier and I clearly proved they are not. Want to see an even lighter steel bike?

Here's a 9.94 lb steel bike:





Can you show me a carbon fiber framed bike that is 4-5 lbs less than that? Hell, can you show me a carbon fiber framed bike that even weighs less than that?

The steel weight discussion is a complete side bar to what the OP is asking about and really a waste of time. It's been debated ad nauseum on other subforums.

But, if the OP walks into a store today, that Roubaix is one they might show him. Actually, the one they will show him will be even heavier than that one as that one is too small for him. The steel bike shown is closer to his size. If that Gunnar in the picture was a 56, it would weigh even less. But if he opts for a less expensive carbon fiber bike, it is going to be even heavier still as they are even heavier than the Roubaix in the picture. My Gunnar is lighter than the equivalently priced Roubaix. But weight isn't really that pertinent if the OP is looking for a first road bike and is not planning on racing it.

Also, as dr_lha has repeatedly said, the carbon fork stance is just silly. Plenty of steel bikes come with carbon forks. You can put a carbon fork on any road bike and it doesn't change the frame material.

Back to the original question, the OP initially asked about a $3,700 Rivendell to begin with, then said $1,200 maybe $2,000 for the right bike. I pointed him to a couple of places that can build him a steel bike for that price range and told him what to look for on Craigslist as well. The rest was just you taking it off the rails and various folks proving your statements incorrect.
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Old 05-26-16, 12:12 PM
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nice $20,000 bike
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Old 05-26-16, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sstorkel
Sounds like we agree. I guess you didn't bother to read the last paragraph of my post? The one where I said, "Do an apples-to-apples comparison without a fork swap and the "steel" bike ends up with a 1-2 pound weight advantage due to component selection. Most steel bikes the OP could afford will also include a steel fork which means gaining another 1-2 pounds of weight (2-4 total)."
Our difference of opinion is that I don't consider having a carbon fork on my steel bike a "fork swap" any more than I consider the carbon fork on my aluminum bike (it has one, a full carbon steerer in fact) a "fork swap". If you want to go down the path of including the fork, why not steel rims as well? Handlebars? Seatpost? You can make a steel bike weigh whatever you like if you follow that logic. It's a specious argument.

I don't know the OP's budget, he never really quoted it, so I can't really comment on whether or not he can afford a steel bike with a CF fork on it, however, I did link to one earlier than costs $800, but you dismissed it, because apparently nobody buys bikes from Bikesdirect?

How about the Jamis Quest Comp, that's $979 MSRP and has a carbon fork. I know, Jamis dealer is 50 miles away!

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Old 05-26-16, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bransom
I think everyone is getting too wound up over frame materials. To the OP, just go ride a bunch of bikes in your size that are designed for what you hope to do (long rides, race, gravel, whatever). Pick the one that feels best to YOU. There is no ultimate "best" material or bike, just what works for you or doesn't.
Fantastic advice - I totally agree with the above. While frame material can matter, it matters a whole lot less than some are making out in this thread and probably should be a secondary consideration. Ride some bikes that fit your budget and are designed for the kind of riding you want to do and go with whatever speaks to you. If it turns out to be a retro-grouch approved steel bike that's fine, but it might also be a modern hydro-formed aluminum bike or even a carbon bike. And that's fine too - the best bike for you is the one that you are going to enjoy riding, that you look forward to taking out.
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Old 05-26-16, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by winston63
Ride some bikes that fit your budget and are designed for the kind of riding you want to do and go with whatever speaks to you. If it turns out to be a retro-grouch approved steel bike that's fine, but it might also be a modern hydro-formed aluminum bike or even a carbon bike. And that's fine too - the best bike for you is the one that you are going to enjoy riding, that you look forward to taking out.
Probably the best advice in the thread.

I mean... as long as its a steel bike
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Old 05-26-16, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
Probably the best advice in the thread.

I mean... as long as its a steel bike


For what it's worth, I do happen to like steel bikes quite a bit
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Old 05-26-16, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha
Our difference of opinion is that I don't consider having a carbon fork on my steel bike a "fork swap" any more than I consider the carbon fork on my aluminum bike (it has one, a full carbon steerer in fact) a "fork swap"
Sounds good. Feel free to point to name-brand, LBS-sold steel bikes that include a carbon fiber fork. I've already pointed to numerous examples of readily available steel bikes within the OP's budget that don't include carbon forks. How many can you point to that do? I know, I know: the Jamis Quest. Can you name any others? I can't....

I don't know the OP's budget, he never really quoted it
I guess you missed this statement in the very first post from the thread:

Originally Posted by BrazAd
I'm okay with spending $1,200 for the right bike... maybe $1,500 or $2,000 if I was really impressed.
Pretty hard to miss that if you're paying any attention to the discussion.

How about the Jamis Quest Comp, that's $979 MSRP and has a carbon fork. I know, Jamis dealer is 50 miles away!
Looks like a great deal for a steel bike that includes a carbon fork and bottom-of-the-barrel Sora components. It also weight 23 pounds according to Jamis, which almost certainly means that it weighs more in real life. Sadly, it I don't think that's going to meet the OP's goal of being lighter than the 20-pound Rivendell Roadeo.
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Old 05-27-16, 12:57 AM
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My sub 20 pound Pinarello Opera steel bike is very nice, As is my 18.5# Litespeed and even lighter carbon Cannondale.

The bike i have been grabbing the most lately weighs 23 lbs --- its a Columbus steel De Bernardinwith a circa 2000 Veloce triple groupset, 32 spoke wheels with heavy aero profile clinchers, and a tall Nitto stem

I have lighter bikes, but something about this one trumps light weight-- its a great machine

Now - if i trade the heavy aero clinchers for tubulars on. Gl330 or equivalent rim-- and maybe swap the heavy steel turbo saddle for something titanium-- then i a, under 22 , - about what a pro level bike weighed before aluminum and carbon took over - im good with that- it rides great
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Old 05-27-16, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
He's not being misled. He asked about steel and carbon fiber bikes. Those are two examples and what they weigh. The only reason I posted that is because you said steel bike are 4-5 lbs heavier and I clearly proved they are not.
No, I did not. As a point of fact, which you seem to have a tenuous grasp on, I didn't say anything about weight until after you posted your two bogus photos. At no time did I say that a steel bike was 4-5 pounds heavier than a carbon bike (that was your buddy dr_lha). Why don't you find the sentence where I did talk about weight differences (should be easy: I posted it twice) and post it again, just so we both know what was said and how poor your reading comprehension is?

BTW, feel free to put some pedals, a bottle cage, hydraulic disc brakes, and an Ultegra Di2 gruppo on that Gunnar and post another picture of it. I'm guessing the scale reads 20 pounds, not 18 and change...

Here's a 9.94 lb steel bike:
How much does it cost? Does it fit within the OP's $1200-2000 budget (judging by the $900+ carbon crank, I'd guess not)? Is it Clyde approved? Which LBS can I go to for a test-ride?

Can you show me a carbon fiber framed bike that is 4-5 lbs less than that? Hell, can you show me a carbon fiber framed bike that even weighs less than that?
Can you show me a steel bike that weighs that little? Weight-wise that's a carbon bike: carbon seat post, carbon saddle, carbon cranks, carbon wheels, carbon handlebar, carbon fork, and even carbon chain rings. The brake and stem are aluminum while the pedals are titanium.

Plenty of steel bikes come with carbon forks.
Do they? Give me some examples that I can find at my LBS. The Jamis Quest has already been mentioned. Are there any others that don't involve buying a frame and paying $$$$ for a custom build?
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Old 05-27-16, 04:40 AM
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storkel, I forgot how attached you get to these threads and how you post and post altering the discussion until you feel you are somehow correct in your statements. You have Google, you could find the answers to these questions if you really wanted to. They are readily available to someone that wants to see. I suspect that's not your goal though. My interest level in engaging your trolling has passed.

OP, feel free to reach out if you have more questions.
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