mesasone

Well, I've been commuting for a few weeks now, and am really enjoying it. I only lose a minute or two versus driving and gain a ton of time compared to walking, so it works out to be pretty much ideal. And the weather, for the most part, has cooperated, with a few showers that always seem to hit after I make it to work, or clear off just a few minutes before I leave. However, I would like to get into some longer riding for recreational purposes, and am not terribly confortable with my wheel set after having lurked and searched through this forum for the past two months or so, hearing stories of spokes popping tires and long walks home.

To this end, I am looking at getting a custom wheel set built up. I dropped my bike off at the "shop" (Scheel's All Sports - the LBS are much farther and keep hours that are virtually impossible for me to make on second shift) today to get the 30 day tune up (just squeeking by on that one), and asked one of the guys about getting a wheel set built. They directed me to their manager who does wheels, and he gave me an estimate for what it would cost. I asked him to write down the parts he was suggesting so I could mull it over a bit. Here's what he wrote down, as best I can tell ... have you guys any advice?

Hubs: Shimano m495 (I think he said these are on close out), $20-30 - or - Shimano m530 hubs, 360 hole $54.99
Rims: Sun Rhyno Lite 36h $80 for the pair
Spokes: DT Swiss 14g $36 for 64 spokes... of course, I'll be needing 72...

The prices quoted look pretty competetive with what it would cost me to buy the parts online. I have a couple of thoughts: first, I was thinking of going with the m535 hubs over the 530 - the only difference I can see between them is a few bucks and disc brake mounts, so I figured I'd be better off with the m535s just incase I decide to go disc brakes. Second, he was mumbling something about wanting to get a wider rim... not sure what exactly, I was keeping my eye on the clock as I needed to get going to work. My primary concern is that I ordered a new pair of tires from Nashbar the other weekend, Panaracer Pasela TG in 700x35 size. Is this something I need to bring up, or should the new rims be fine. If not, should I just ditch these new tires (they will fit on my current wheel set, which I plan on keeping as back ups...), or find a rim that will suit these tires?

Mr. Beanz

Just a lil curious. The parts you mention seem to be mtb type. But the tires 700? Usually mtb wheels are 26X 2,1.5'ish....700 road/hybrid tyep tires are too tall for 26 mtb wheels/rims.

What kind of bike are your riding? 135 spacing on mtb's and 130 on roadbikes. Hubs you mention are for mtb types.

CliftonGK1

Hubs: Shimano m495 (I think he said these are on close out), $20-30 - or - Shimano m530 hubs, 360 hole $54.99

360 hole, 4 cross. Strongest wheel ever!

mesasone

I'm riding a hybrid, Trek fx 7.2

These are the parts he suggested, not me. I'm trying to figure all this out on my own, but it's pretty confusing.

Mr. Beanz

Oh Cool! I'm pretty sure they do use mtb type hubs on hybrids mixed with 700 rims/tires. Sounds about right!


Not many riders use mtb hubs on roadies. You can is some instances but overkill is the reason most don't, I believe. Makes sense on a hybrid though. Just checking to make sure you didn't go mtb hubs with a roadie., not that you couldn't!........Sounds like the guy has got your back.

Wogster

A lot of hybrids are 135mm width, some touring bikes also use 135mm width including the Surly LHT, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't become much more common, as it means that fewer different sized parts are needed by a manufacturer, and there isn't that much difference between a MTB hub and a road hub, except that MTB hubs are often better sealed against moisture/

CliftonGK1

Exactly. Most road hubs are lighter than MTB hubs, and just as strong. Although, there are certain frames designed to take either/or for the hubs. Surly, for example, uses 132.5 spacing so you can use road or MTB hubs on a few of their bikes.

mesasone

They should only make this stuff in one style and size, and that should be the style and size that I want!

I tried looking up the rim/tire sizing on sheldon brown's site, but ended up just scratching my head. I'm a very quick study when it comes to hands on, but with text and charts... put me at the back of the class, please!

I did manage to find the Rhyno Lite in 700c on the Harris website, so that helps ease my mind a bit.

Mr. Beanz

Pretty basic. MTB's use 26 inch wheels. Lower in height and usually wider for strength. For jumping off cliffs and that type of stuff.

Roadies and hybrids use 700 wheels. Taller an usually thinner. Allows for narrow tires which means less resistance and more speed in most cases.

Can't put a 700 on an mtb set up for 26 inch wheels cause the brakes will not mach the surface of the rim where the brakes operate (braking surface). Just won't match. ANd vice versa!

Plus you can't put a 26 tire on a 700. That would be like trying to put a volkswagen car cover on a Suburban!

geo8rge

You might consider Phil Wood hubs ($$$). Build around an axle designed for tandem bikes they can take whatever you (and your gear) got. Big red PHIL logo says steal me I am expensive.

cyccommute 

MTB wheels are 26" because of history, not necessarily because of design. The benefits gained are just a happy accident. Same with road wheels.

The main benefit of the 26" wheel...and where the strength... comes from is in the shorter spokes. Short spokes are stronger because of the reduced lever arm on at the rim. If I were designing a bike to carry heavy loads...touring bike, clyde bike, mountain bike, etc...I'd go with 26" wheels over 700 any day. Tandems, for example, need 48 spokes to carry the weight if they are 700C. If you have 26" wheels, the spoke count can be reduced to 36 without losing strength.

mesasone, the wheels they've spec'd are okay. But I would make one modification, ask for butted spokes over straight gauge. From St. Sheldon:


Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic. This allows them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke hole.

The very best spokes for heavy duty use are DT Alpine III. Same benefit as regular butted spokes but with a larger head that resists breaking.

bdinger

I had a 700c RhynoLite on my old bike, and even being a 32h version (as opposed to the more-spokes-is-always-better 36h version you were spec'd) it was danged tough. While I popped some spokes, it did much better than the stocker and well, I'm BIG and powerful. At the time I was riding that bike I was in the 360-400 range (on my way down from 400) and averaging 15-18mph on long rides. Yeah, can you say torque?

Anyway, to answer your other question, I wouldn't go anything narrower than a 700x32c tire on a 700c RhynoLite. I had that on mine, and I'd just not feel comfortable with anything skinnier. But that's fine, there's plenty of fast rolling tires in 700x32.

keithm0

Except for those that use 29 inch wheels.

Unless you're using disc brakes -- I do this all the time on my Stumpjumper.

Mr. Beanz

I have friends that ride tandems. The tandems have Bontager 700 rims. Can't be more than 20/24 spokes 9paired spoke technology). I wouldn't use them myself but they have had great luck with them for a few years now. I wouldn't consider them lite riders either.

Santana has been using 40 spoke wheelsets on their tandems since 98 (?). There thinking is that the wheels don't need mor than the 40 since they use a 160/165 (?) mm hub rather than the usual 145mm that others used on tandems.

mesasone

I am now thinking about building my own wheels, as the cost for the tools is not much higher than the cost to have them build, and I was not especially impressed when I went to pick up my bike yesterday - The wheels were trued, which was my only concern, and the brakes were adjusted and grab better now, but seemed to be rubbing on my rims and producing a noticible drag. The bike was not cleaned as best I can tell - not a big concern for me, but if you say you're going to do something I expect you to do it.

Here is my current, and hopefully finalized build list:

Hub: Shimano Deore m525 36 hole, black. $44.69 for the pair from JensonUSA
Rims: Sun Rhyno Lite 700c 36 hole, black/silver. $59.44 for a pair from Cascade Cyclery
Spokes: DT Apline III 292mm, black 72 count $77.95 from bikeman
---
Total: 182.08 + shipping

I had trouble finding the Alpine IIIs in 292mm, most places seem to jump from like 268 to 295mm.

I ran the numbers through a spoke calculator, and here is what I got:

Front: 291.5, 292.6
Rear: 292.6, 291.3

Based on this, I think 292mm would be the best size. Of course, I got a completely different number from the DT Swiss spoke calculator, so who knows. They were asking for some numbers that I wasn't sure of (spoke intersections and pinch circle length), so I filled them in to the best of my ability guessing at whats what from spec sheets.

I would also like to add a pair of disc brakes, I was thinking the Avid BB7s. I read somewhere that it is suggested that larger riders go with 185mm discs in the front, and 160mm in the rear (as opposed to 160/160). I could save a few bucks by purchasing them from Performance (160/160) at 54.99 ea (plus any coupons I could score). Otherwise, JensonUSA has them at 64/60, 185/160 respectively. Has anybody tried 160/160?

Air

Quick questions:

How heavy are you plus your gear? What kind of commute do you travel over (gravel, smooth pavement, etc...)

You've commuted for a few weeks and the wheels went out of true? Just from smooth pavement riding or did you hit a bunch of potholes?

I ask because I did the same thing when I first started riding until I realized that - hey look, these wheels are actually doing a good job so far! (This was my mtb - not the roadie which I had so many problems with (see title <--- and my sig ). Wound up having them true a 48 spoke 20" BMX wheel for one of my folders because I was worried about the tension and they never even checked it!

Learning to build your own wheels is a great process, one that I hope to do if I have some more room at some point (I have a bunch of links on that in my siggie). It may not be perfect the first time so it's good that you have a workable pair fall back on in case.

Answer the questions above and I'll be able to give you more feedback, it's hard to without knowing though.

cyccommute 

I wouldn't use 20/24 spoke wheels for myself, let alone for a tandem My tandem dates from 1987 and, while I haven't measured the rear wheel, I think it might be a 135. It needs 48 spokes

I'm a little behind the curve on tandems, by the way...ever since my kids grew up

Mr. Beanz

Hey Mesasone, I'm kind of unclear on your spoke lengths.

You have 2 sizes for the front as two different caluclators gave you two different readings, correct? Wheel is symmetrical with one length of spokes for both sides.

But the rear has 2 different lengths also. A wheels should have 2 different lengths in the rear to compensate for the dish. SO shouldn't there be 4 values listed?

One side is shorter than the other compensating for the cogset (gears). The wheel is asymmetrical with one side being longer and one shorte putting the shorter spokes on the drive side.

I guess I'm wondering if you realize this and why you didn't post 4 values for the rear?

Mr. Beanz

Tha's not the understanding I got from reading his post. I understood it was more that he was worried what might happen after reading others' post on failing wheels. I don't think he mentions wheels out of true, so I took it as planning for the future!






Actually pretty easy when you do it. Sounds cary from all the reading but actually lots of common sense. As far as room, I have a cheapo stand from Performance, cheapo dishing tool and a $2 (on sale) spoke wrench. I pull out my stand, sit on the floor and build it in a space about 5 X 5, then fold it up and stack it in the closet. One can actually build the wheel on the bike. I've actually nearly rebuilt a buds wheel on teh roadside before, on the bike.

It's amazing to me that I use cheapo stuff and my wheels have 14,000 miles with no problems. Several high end bike shops using high end tools have lasted as litle as 40 miles, and at the most, 4,000 miles.

Air

Do you use a tension meter?

Herein lies the problem in terms of room There's only so many things within 400 square feet you can squeeze together when you're also a musician (in here I have a tuba, baritone, trombone, accordion, cello, trumpet, clarinet, bass, guitar, music stands, full 88 key keyboard), techie (recording equipment, microphones, 2 monitors, laptop), student (binders everywhere with my dissertation research), have three bikes and still be able to entertain guests (up to 60 at a pop!)

I'm building a stand that uses my computer desk as the main part (sitting on the floor and using the leg to clamp the wheel) but I have a few other projects that need to get done before I finish that. Like the dissertation

mesasone

I'm not sure of my weight, it's been a while since I've weighed in but I would put myself in the range of 310-320, probably. I don't think my gear weights much, I travel pretty light.

Mr. Beanz, The different spoke lengths came from the same calculator. I just wrote down what came out. I think I have two for the front because there is also a (theoretical) disc up there. The calculator had the numbers for the hubs already, so I only had to fill in for the rims, which I got off the Sun Ringele website (612mm ERD, 0 offset). I don't understand why I would have four lengths for the rear though...

Also, I think the wheel was out of true. I flipped the bike and spun the wheels to check, and the wheels seemed to have a bit of wobble to them. Nothing too bad, but I wanted to get them trued since it was free with in 30 days I haven't run into any pot holes, and only went down one curb on the way home from buying the bike. I checked the wheels when I first got the bike home, and it seemed to have a slight wobble to it, so I'm thinking the wheel wasn't properly adjusted when I bought the bike. They are pretty straight now, though.

Mr. Beanz

I figured you'd have 4 cause you had two lengths for the front (2 different calculators). SO I figured ther would be two sets for the rear equalling 4 numbers (2 differ calculators) since there are 2 different lengths on each rear wheels, one for the drive side, one for the non drive.

Actually just making sure you realize there are two different lengths for a rear wheel.

Mr. Beanz

I had planned on buying one but I have a friend that is a good wheelbuilder (only guy that built a set that lasted for me). I felt thespokes on a new wheel, went home, built my wheel, then took it in to the shop to ask about tensionmeters. My bud said he'd check it no problem. Turns out I was right in the target zone.

He said he could order one for me, $60'sh dollars but said not to worry as he had no problem checking them for me. What little work I have done at the shop, he has done. I've always left him big tips and follow him whatever shop he may end up at, so he watches my back too!

He's a good mechanic. Dropped what he was doing when I walked in with my tandem wheels and rough bearings. He rebuilt it on the spot, then charged me only $12 including parts and labor. I thru in an extra $20 for the 'on the spot ' service! These are the best friends to find!

Mr. Beanz

Oh yeah, ditch the tuba. That ought to make room for 6 more bikes!

cyccommute 

His hubs are discs. That's the reason for the different lengths on the front.

292mm would be the best bet, mesasone. These guys say they have them. So does BikeMan