mhuntwork

Actually, I mentioned 99 cents for the romas I saw a few days ago at Megalomart are 1/5 the PRICE of the organics at the smaller market I like to get my delicious, locally grown heirloom tomatoes. I was just relating the price to yield, not making a one to one relationship.

I don't think I need a citation to state that fertilizer and pesticides result in higher yields. I certainly don't believe that organic farming produces 20% the yield but it still isn't the same. A lot of it is market demand driving up the price.

My point is that I don't have a problem with how they are grown or where they come from. The folks buying them often deperately need the break. I was really surprised to see that low of a price because of the ratchet we have seem across groceries due to energy costs and the weakened buying power of the dollar.

Is there anyone in the north who doesn't eat fresh vegetables from November through March? If you do, where do they come from? South America? Mexico?

I suppose you could grow them locally in a greenhouse heated by burning natural gas. I don't think that is going to be as efficient as transporting, though.

lunchbox1972

Each person needs to come to the realization on their own.

Parents need to teach their kids. You'll never legislate morals, or lifestyles. Education is the only key.

It took a heart attack to kick my ass into gear. As luck would have it, I didn't get much damage to my body, but I did get the swift kick I needed. Now I can teach my kids even better choices. Although they don't have some of the dietary issues that I had and actually eat rather healthy to begin with..

45 pounds in the last 16 weeks.

wrk101

"Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." Change comes from within, not from external forces.

The "good" news is that the rest of the world is quickly joining us in the obesity race. Misery loves company......

lil brown bat

Unfortunately, I don't think that can be regarded as a blip. See, that's the problem: you become dependent on a cheap overseas source...then things change, and suddenly it's not so cheap any more. That's the hard common sense behind the hundred-mile diet.

There are such people, yes -- do a google search on "homesteading". Although, I don't know, would you consider cellar vegetables fresh? Apart from those few, I do know more people whose eating habits change from October (November is way past harvest) to May (we're still hip-deep in snow in March). The "thousand-mile tomato" just isn't all that tasty, you know? And some of the produce that's available locally now becomes extremely expensive if it has to come from far away (berries as an example), so people freeze or can their own or do without.

Neither is going to be efficient enough to provide a steady diet of reasonably priced fresh produce throughout winter. Again, that's where canning and cellaring comes in.

mhuntwork

While not quite a heart attack I have Rodale to thank for my latest healthy living kick. They are the greatest health fear mongerers on the planet. There was an article in Mens Health a few months ago on pre-diabetes that has had me not just going to the gym and lose weight, as I have been doing for more than a year, but to try and pay attention to the stats on the food I eat besides calories and protein (although they are still the first things I look for).

lil brown bat

Some people will be scared straight...but clearly not the majority. The info's out there...

I think the change will come when the basic reality changes to the point where the sedentary lifestyle we can enjoy today is no longer possible.

petflunky

We were offered swimming where I went to school. We had to wear speedos (Yeah, I was the fat kid stuck wearing a Speedo). Yes, I hated high school.

DallasSoxFan

Federally require all primaries on the same day so that Iowa doesn't have as much pull. That will help stop the subsidies.

Nola_Gal

I do think things will have to change to force lifestyle choices...along the lines of $10 gal gas. Over time would that make things like neighborhood schools that kids could walk or ride to or bike lanes that make commuting feasible more likely to get done?

I also think there are other ways to do it. Insurance companies give 'good student' discounts on car insurance. What about 'fitness' discounts on health insurance? Are there things that companies can do to facilitate exercise as a way to lower group health rates. I know we'd have to be careful to not cross that line into discrimination but...

How about a 'fitness tax credit'? The tax code is used to encourage all kinds of behavior in the interest of the public good, from capital investments to homeownership. Why not as a way to encourage fitness and a healthy lifestyle?

cohophysh

Gees, this must be the wrong forum, I swear I was in the clydes/athena forum and not the roadie forum. Enough bickering, take this to PMs cause I am sure some of us do not want to read your petty in fighting.

Tom Stormcrowe

Did I somehow click the wrong link and wind up in P&R or Road?

DnvrFox

How many folks does it take to degrade an interesting (to me, at least) thread?

Well, at least one and perhaps two.

I suggest we send this off to P&R.

I thought it was doing pretty well until . . . .

Well, you know!

Tom Stormcrowe

Well, back to the topic: How to address the problem of a Sedentary Society.


A large part of the issue as I see it is simply that we've gotten so wrapped up in the day to day grind that we have forgotten how to play and take care of ourselves. I used to get so busy that I wouldn't take the time to even sleep unless I was exhausted, and ate on the run, so to speak, while driving the truck.

Yeah, I made decent money, but in the short run, even, I wasn't very happy. I've refocused my life quite a bit in the last few years, and among other things, have decided to go after what my passion is, and stay healthy enough to enjoy that course as well. I have more time, but less money, but I'm definitely happier than I have been in decades. A good part of that happiness is because I've relearned how to play and have fun! That sense of having fun is a good part of what keeps me going on my path, as an intrinsic motivator.

JoelS

I got kicked into gear by the readings on the scale. When I realized I was a Clyde, I got motivated. Down 30 pounds now. It also helps that my son enjoys riding. We go out outings together, last one was 33 miles round trip with lunch in the middle (not bad for a 6yo).

Saturday we're doing a local charity ride, the Ride for a Reason. He saw the flyer and wanted to, so we signed up. I figure we'll do 28 to 30 miles that day.

My kids see my wife and I exercise. They get interested as a result. We don't push the kids to do it, they do it when they want to. Keeps the interest level up. They're both very slim. We also don't make them finish what's on the plate. Often serving sizes are too big. They eat slow and stop when they've eaten enough. I also make fairly healthy meals here at home.

They're learning by example. With any luck it'll be a lifelong lesson.

If you want change to be successful, this is a good way for it to happen.

Pamestique 

Geez Tom I wondered where you were... this was beginning to seem more P & R than anything else...

I really thought about this... I heard on my morning radio show that some employers are going to start charging employees (for health coverage that is now fully paid) more money if they are obese, have high BP, smoke etc. I would like to think if it's going to affect the pocketbook some people will react possitively. But what I think will happen is some group like the ACLU will step in and file a suit saying this is unfair and unconsitutional as smokers and fat people have rights too and should not be charged anything extra (although it costs the employer considerable more).

In the old days, it was shameful to be fat and lazy. Now it's acceptable. Maybe we need to go back to making fun of fat people (as which I are one and have suffered ridicule in my day). Short of that I can't think of anything else that will work. You know how hard it is to diet. It usually takes a life changing event. Sadly, I see so many little kids missing out because their parents won't take them outside and they themselves don't have the desire. It kindof makes me sad!

Pamestique 

And Joel you make my point - if the parents exercise, kids will generally follow. Congrats on the weight loss!

lil brown bat

Hey, don't point the finger; I made several comments in which I answered your question in several different ways. I guess people, yourself included, just weren't so interested in those. My fault, how?

Pamestique 

Hey lil brown bat, since I hang a bit in P & R just know it's time to slow down and cool the jets... no sense letting your BP go sky high. Let's not hijack Denver's thread! Tom has made it a point to move us back to the topic...

txvintage

I know there are companies with wellness programs that do reduce your premiums when you reach certain goals. After a point, there are other rewards. There have been posts here referring to them. One was in Lincoln I believe.

While I dislike the reward system in general, I can see how this could be be a possible incentive that could work. Of course, you now enter into a bottom line issue between employers and insurance companies, and I have yet to meet an insurance company willing to reduce a health care premium without reducing coverage. In fact, reduced coverage seems to be accompanied by increased premiums in my experience.

The good ones have realized that the increase in productivity and attendance outweighs the costs of the incentive program.

Ultimately, I believe that society, and business for that matter, undertakes an initiative only when something is to be gained. That "gain" can be material, physical, and/or social. It is perceived as a gain none the less. For most on this board, our gain has been recognized, and we have undertaken the steps to reach the initiative with our own internal motivation.

JoelS

I think this thread is starting to fall into a moral predicament. With all the talk about insurance companies charging higher rates for things in order to make folks react positively. This is a dangerous line of thinking and takes us into highly charged political territory.

IMO, the only one who should decide what is a "positive" reaction for me is...well...me. I don't want any others making that decision for me. Nor should anyone else make that decision for me. I live my life the way I choose to (yes, I smoke a pipe (make 'em too) and occasional cigar). I do things that improve my quality of life as I see it. Not as someone else sees it. The govt. shouldn't be making those decisions for me. Insurance companies shouldn't make those decisions for me (they need to worry only about stock holders, bottom line, market share, etc. Not moral issues).

I point this out to reinforce that we're migrating into political territory and away from other issues.

One of the few things that can actually motivate someone to change behaviour is fear. Money is not generally a good motivator, at least not for the change that we're discussing. Fear is it. I changed because of fear. I would venture to guess that just about every one of you that took up biking to get healthier did it as a result of fear. Fear of death. Or fear of diabetes. Or fear of heart failure. Fear of something.

You want the population to change? You have to scare them. Not a generalized scare, but an individual one. Frankly, I don't even think it's realistically possible. Discussing this is like chasing a pipe dream. People will either change or they won't.

Yeah, I have a rather cynical view. But it does seem to be accurate, and I'm so rarely disappointed.

East Hill

Two minute warning here.

Let's please try to keep on the topic, because P & R is the only place where ankle biting is allowed.

East Hill

Wogster

Let me wade in here, with another tack, is there a problem with a sedentary society, or is this a personal issue. I mean, if you or I want to get healthier, then should that be a personal decision or a societal one?

My thinking on this is that it needs to be a bit of both, in general it's a personal decision, do you want to be a stressed out, over weight, smoking, drunk, who can barely crawl to the SUV for the heavy traffic trip to a high stress job. Or do you want to be the kinda guy who can go for a long walk on a beach, or ride a bicycle 500 miles without really giving the effort of it a second thought.

Society plays a part, North American society is possessed by the demon of the automobile, so they build cities with massive areas and low populations, and put long distances between amenities, and then only connect them by freeways, and high speed arterials. making the only way to get anywhere, by automobile, because density is too low for any form of public transit, to work well. The high speed traffic makes cycling too dangerous, if allowed on the high speed roads at all, and it's too far to walk anywhere..... Society has promoted the television as the medium for entertainment, and television advertisements encourage people to stuff their faces with processed crap.

Society needs to change this, walking has a reasonable limit of about 2km, cycling about 20km, public transit about 40km, these are not absolute limits, but what is practical to achieve in a reasonable amount of time. To encourage people to get out of their cars, you need to make 50% of amenities possible within 2km of home, and 90% within 20km. This isn't possible with 3,000 sqft McMansions on ½ acre lots. It is possible if you have 10 town homes on that same ½ acre..... When you think of town homes, don't think of the brick and siding cheap ones built in the 1950's, some of the modern designs are very nice, marble tile and granite counter top nice. Many of these have underground parking. Eliminating the drive way and front yard goes a long way toward increasing density.....

Tom Stormcrowe

It's a personal one, but it has societal implications, in my view. I'm not going to advocate any legislation to "force" the changes necessary, because ultimately that won't work, and opens the door to other major problems. It's a Social problem with multiple small local effort grass roots solutions, to my mind.

Get active locally, and address it with developing local rides that encourage new riders, or other physical activities, even. Doing what I do through the Clyde/Athena Forum is another example.....modeling behaviors and showing it can be done. I've reached quite a few people through this medium, as have others here as well. If each of you gets the message to, say, 10 people and positively influence them, and they do the same thing, another 10 each, and so on, guess what, we get a multiple exponential growth pattern spreading ripples. That's how to address it, I believe.

Legislating a forced solution will get resentments stirred, and there will always be those that just can't get off their butts. Other aspects of forced solutions is that it opens the door to discriminatory practices. Look back and see where Pam made reference to making fun of overweight people. I realize that isn't what she's advocating, but it's a realistic possible unintended outcome that will drive a large group of sedentary and overweight people away....exactly the opposite effect that is desired. We've had our successes because of the supportive environment we maintain here by conscious choice. We chose to embrace a healthier lifestyle and many of us have changed our lifestyles radically to achieve what we want.

The cool thing is, it's also a whole lot of fun! Push that aspect, reteach how to play, and as people change their views, they will tend to shift their lifestyles to accommodate their new wants/needs. Classic Maslov and Vygotsky behavioral patterns.

DukeRyder

I don't think we can blame T.V. if we wanted to be like the people on T.V. nobody would be fat because outside of Rosanne Barr there aren't really any Fat People on TV (and even Rosanne ain't even that fat anymore).

With Kids it's definitely the Parents Fault. My buddy is a Physical Educator at a Middle School in Massachusetts he takes his Job very seriously. He wrote grants and gets money for all kinds of cool crap for the kids (Mtn Bikes, Kayaks, Golf, you name it); but they are ungrateful and still disinterested. Why 'cause their parents encourage them to play SimCity or some other B.S. on the computer. The parents also condone quitting if a kid sucks at something like baseball they'll let them quit. When I was a kid your dad would make you practice and try to help you get better.

I think the reason us Adults are fat (well the folks I work with and myself) are because we have to drive to work at 0'dark thirty and sit at a terminal in a cube for 10hrs a day (sometimes more), eat lunch at the desk from a institutional caferia and then have the same commute home and unless it's summer again in the dark. Lucky for me I only have a 15mile commute most that I work with go at least double.

If corporations made an initiative to set aside time during the work day to go use the gym, go for a walk etc it would be a huge way to get people active. But leaving your desk for an hour to go "play" is seriously frowned upon (maybe not in California) especially at a place like I work with a bunch of old skool engineers. Our company's health insurance doesn't cover any Medical Expenses related to Obesity and offers $250 towards a Health-Club Membership but doesn't really a lot for time to use it

When I was in manual labor I still worked full time but damn I was never tired at the end of the day and much lighter. If I didn't have so many expenses I'd leave my job and be a park ranger or something fun like that and not be nearly as stressed out or fat.

Tom Stormcrowe

Here's another aspect of the problem......the "blame game". It doesn't matter who or what is to blame, what matters is how do you effect change. The only time blame matters is if there is a crime, or liability. Other than that, we need to move past blaming Mom and Dad, or society, or work, and just address the problem and change the outcome by changing the variables that lead to it.