contango 

So as not to derail the thread here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post11934151

which started to talk about my spoke issues rather than the OP's need for a strong bike, I figured I'd start my own thread.

I've got Lennard Zinn's book on mountain bike maintenance and can understand the basic theory behind spoke tension. But having never attempted it before it does look like straightening a wheel and tensioning the spokes is a very slow process with lots of opportunities to get it badly wrong. Being a heavier rider I'd rather not find out I'd got it wrong by hearing multiple spokes pinging underneath me and getting to walk (or limp) home.

One advantage I do have is that I've got the old wheel off my bike (I replaced it for a stronger one a few months back) so I can fiddle with that until I'm comfortable that I've at least got it right in theory. I've also got my LBS about 5 minutes walk from home so if I do screw up my "live" wheel I can take it there.

So the questions really are down to recommendations regarding wheel stands (the bike has disc brakes so using brake pads as a guide doesn't work), any specific tips on other gear I might need, and perhaps any voices of experience to warn me of any typical newbie mistakes.

As I understand it I'll want a truing stand, a dishing tool and a spoke tension meter. If I've missed anything please feel free to correct me (I've never attempted any maintenance on a wheel at all so please don't assume any level of knowledge!)

sstorkel

The Park TS-2 is the gold standard of truing stands... and priced accordingly. I bought a SpinDoctor truing stand from Performance Bike. It's basically a re-badged Minoura and seems to work pretty well. I'm sure the TS2 is better, but for someone who is only going to work on wheels a couple of times a year the Minoura is fine. Currently on sale at Nashbar for $70 with 20% off if you buy $100 or more... I bought the Park WAG-4 for dishing and the Park TM-1 for tensioning. Both are very nice and work well. Experienced wheel builders will tell you that you don't need either... but they sure make the job a lot easier!

Wheel truing is really very easy if you pay attention to what you're doing. If you've read Sheldon Brown's site and watched some YouTube videos, there are really only a couple of things to know:

1) Drop the spoke wrench onto a nipple from above; if you try to slip it on and off from the side, you'll eventually round the nipple over

2) Watch for spoke wind-up. If you want to tighten a nipple by a quarter-turn, tighten it three-eighths of a turn, then back-off one-eighth. I've also seen guys add masking tape "flags" to the spokes so they can easily tell if the spokes are turning. Seems like over-kill to me, but if you're paranoid...

3) You may have to adjust more than one spoke to fix problems. Especially as the wheel gets closer to true and spokes get closer to correct tension, you can't always fix a problem by adjusting a single spoke. Instead, you may have to make small changes to 3-5 spokes that are near the problem spot.

Just take your time and you'll be fine. Once you think you've got everything right, take the bike out for a test ride then check everything again when you return. And again 3-5 rides later. The place where people get into trouble is by working on their own wheels, not getting everything quite right... and then not looking at it again until they're breaking spokes or pulling nipples through the rim.

contango 

Thanks sstorkel... whatever an experienced wheel builder might say doesn't necessarily apply to me, since I have precisely zero experience of building wheels!

Let me take a look into that stand... I'm in the UK so will need to find a different supplier. Depending on when I'm next in the US it might be worth picking up a dishing and tension tool - with the exchange rate and the pricing mismatches ($45 or £50) it could save me a fair bit of money.


What bothers me about wheel truing (having never done it before and therefore possibly making mountains out of molehills) is the idea that first I need to get lateral trueness right, then radial trueness (all the while not overtensioning anything), then checking it's not dished and correcting that if needs be, and then making sure the tensions are all OK. If any of the spokes aren't tensioned right then wouldn't correcting the tension throw the wheel out of true, resulting in that undesired outcome of starting again?

I do like the idea of wheels lasting me 20,000 miles rather than me starting to lose faith in their strength after 1000-1500 miles. I'd always assumed it was down to being a heavy rider going at higher speeds over rough terrain.

Mr. Beanz

It's always in wheel discussions that in order to ge the wheel true, the tensions aren't always exactly even at the end of the build.

Checkout SheldonBrowndotcom....I used his instructions to build my wheels, no books for me, just Sheldon's online instructions.
https://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Even in PeterWhite's site, he mentions somewhere that no wheel is perfect at the end of the build, Peter is a very popular online builder in high demand among cyclists because of his quality.

Beinga rider that has dealt with many failed wheels from rec'd local builders at high end shops, I did everything I could to ensure a good build. I got tired of paying $100 labor for shotty work (after providing the parts). I payed close attention to sheldon's tips. Some builders swear tehy don;t need a dish tool, that's cool but I've seen too many wheels by local builders out of dish fresh out of the shop. One female rider thought she was sick at the end of a ride because she was losing her balance on teh ride. I looked at ther rear wheel and found that the wheel was WAY out of dish, wearing on the side like a bad alignment on a vehicle. This was on fairly new $,3000 bikes, the couple had matching bikes. I looked at the rear wheel as they had mentioned that the bikes had just gotten out of the shop after a high end tuneup, $100 each! Back then, I had only bilt my first wheel, a newb and I could spot the problem with my eye but the pro at the shop swearing he didn't need a dishtool didn't? UP to you but after so many wheel problems, the few bucks is good insurance for a good build IMO, but that's up to you.

I also payed attention to teh lacing of the trailing spokes on the inside of the hub flange on the drive side of the wheel. Some will argue that it doesn't matter, evn Sheldon says some pro builders do the opposite with good results but I wanted to do the best I coud so I followed every detail to avoid a shotty build, heck this is my quality build and system..

Basically, he says the trailing spokes take the load so they should be laced on the inside of the flange so that when the load is applied, the flange reinforces those spokes. I have inspected the wheels that ahve caused me problems inteh past and found that the wheels NOT laced to sheldon's advice were problems wheels and required more attention. Last couple of wheels, I just rebuilt myself the correct way and no further problems.

Some will argue these points and some will agree but I was tired of paying money for builders for Mickey Mouse work. Since I started building my own and using Sheldon's best tips, I have had zero problems and the labor is free!

FTR, I see wheels other riders post in other forums, $1500 wheelsets they have bought from other sites and notice the spokes are laced opposite of Sheldon's suggestions. I have also spoke with a couple of builders at the local high end shops only to find their POV on the matter, they had no idea what I was talking about.

This is what I am talking about. The spokes that are directed towards the rear of the bike are the "trailing spokes". Notice that on the driveside they are laced so that the spokes travel along the inside of the hubflange for support. When they flex towards the outside of the bike towards (the rear derailleur) they are supported by the wall of the hub flange.

It's no big deal to some but for my own craftsmanship and durability, I do the best I can.

Also pay attention to the spoke pattern around the vavle hole of the rim. Be sure it is correct before you lace the remainder of the wheel. SPOKES MUST RUN PARRELEL WITH THE VALVE STEM OF THE TUBE. The last wheel I had built by a "PRO", the dude laced it so that it was hard to access the stem with the pump head. Stupid rookie mistake by a well rec'd local pro. When I finally started building my own, I realized what the problem was and why I always had a hard time airing the tire, the shop was gone. The shop closed about a month after the "PRO" built my tandem wheel. I had no idea they were closing andhad only been on the tandem 2 times that month so I was SOL!



w2 by mrbeanz1, on Flickr

Drew Eckhardt 

No.

You can't have a true wheel with a loose or tight spoke unless other nearby spokes are also at incorrect tension with two exceptions:

1. Where the rim is bent. Past some point you need to bend it back or replace it to have the wheel true with acceptable spoke tension (none are loose enough they're going completely slack; none are in danger of causing rim failure). Otherwise you just live with it.

2. At the rim joint. Sometimes the rim joint can be stiffer than the rest of the wheel so adjacent spoke tension is different.

So you just correct all of those spokes at the same time. For instance if you find a tight spoke and the ones immediately left and right on the same side are loose you might loosen it half a turn and tighten its neighbors a quarter turn so the average tension in the area doesn't change and the lateral alignment is unchanged.

Mr. Beanz

This is the second issue I mention above. NOW KEEP MIND, THIS GUY IS HIGHLY REC'D BY LOCAL RACERS AND SUPPOSED TO BE A PRO, IF NOT ONE OF THE BEST IN THE AREA. FTR, I had to rebuild htsi wheel myself after 4 broken spokes. After 200 miles of smooth trail riding, I was breaking one every 40 miles After the 4th, I found that he had used no name spokes in place of the DT that I insisted on and paid for when I placed the order. I ended up rebuilding the wheel myself and have had zero problems with this wheel since.

But onto the other issue, same builder, same bike, front wheel (wheel mentioned above is the rear wheel).

The spokes are "supposed to be laced" so that there is a clear pathway to the stem when attaching the pump head. IN the first poicture it is, which is the rear wheel I had to rebuild (but the builder did have this wheel laced correctly pertaining to this issue, which is amazing).

The second pic, you can see he just crossed the spokes all over the darn place making a big mess and a big inconvenience everytime I want to air up the tires. Cross here and there, very unprofessional job and a big mess. The wheel has been fine as durability, he didn't sub any cheapo spokes so I haven't needed to rebuild it, sut a big darn inconvenience, especially while making a roadside flat repair.

So my point is, use every detail helpful in building a good quality wheel. Don't settle for the BS that some so called "PRO BUILDERS" will feed you about "this and that detail don't matter" because they do! Some people will just say that I over react and that I am too demanding. Look at my pics, Am I over reacting thinking that if I pay you $100 per wheel to build it, it should be done correctly? $200 of shotty work IMO, don't listen to those that say, details don't matter.

I've had too many problems and wasted too much money on wheels that don't work over the years. If you do it yourself, do it right!


Wheel I had to rebuild after 200 miles and breaking spokes every 30 miles. but the passage way is clear

stem1 by mrbeanz1, on Flickr


Look at the big mess this guy made, nothing but interference with the pump head, crappy work.

stem2 by mrbeanz1, on Flickr

Mr. Beanz

But according to PW, there are times where the rim can't be evenly tensioned throughout. Looks like it can be a case to case with each rim at times. Not enough to bea bad build or he'll replace the rim during the build. But tension isn't always even if that's what the OP is asking.


https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp
from his page:
But sometimes I can't get a wheel to be both round and true, and have perfectly even tension all around. That's because of irregularities in the rim itself. If the rim isn't perfectly round and/or true, the spoke tension cannot be even, and end up with a round and true wheel. In order to have a round and true wheel in that case, the spoke tension must be uneven. In that case, I have a decision to make. If the rim is so out of true that the wheel cannot be built with adequate tension in all of the spokes, I cut out the spokes, get another rim and start over again. But if the rim is just a little bit out, and I can correct it with moderately uneven spoke tension, I'll finish the wheel. As long as I can build it so it stays true, I'll do it. And it may end up with a slight vertical hop or dip, but not enough to notice while riding.

sstorkel

Truing is always a compromise. You're never going to have a wheel that's 100% laterally true, 100% radially true, perfectly dished, with all of the spokes at exactly the same tension. The trick is to achieve a reasonable compromise between these three things.

This isn't as difficult as it might sound, especially if you have a tension meter. To correct any particular problem you find in the wheel there are always three choices: increase spoke tension, decrease spoke tension, or do both. Say the wheel isn't laterally true. To correct the problem you need the rim to move toward the "drive side". You can accomplish this either by: tightening drive-side spokes or by loosening non-drive spokes or by doing a bit of both at the same time. If you have a tension meter, it's very easy to decide which approach you need to take.

Keep in mind that on your first attempt, you may have to check each facet of the wheel (lateral true, radial true, dish, tension) multiple times. It's also important to know when to stop trying to adjust the wheel. There seems to be a point where whenever you try to fix one minor imperfection, it causes 1-3 other minor imperfections to show up. That's usually when I give up and call it "good enough"

Drew Eckhardt 

Which is what I said in exemption #1:

Mr. Beanz

Which is what I said in post #4 even before you posted. I reposted it because I couldn't figure out why you had to repeat what I had just posted. Thank you very much!

contango 

One other question... I should have mentioned this earlier but forgot. My back wheel is a Mavic Crossline which has straight spokes. Does that make any difference to the truing process?

sstorkel

Not sure what you mean by "straight spokes". Do you mean the wheel is laced radially, so the spokes never cross each other? In any event, it shouldn't matter...

contango 

No, the spokes are straight so they don't bend before going into the hub. I think they are called "straight pull spokes". I'd never seen spokes quite like them until I bought this wheel - I chose the wheel because the spokes were thicker and the reviews I read of it seemed to suggest it could withstand large drops and a lot more abuse than I'm likely to throw at it.

sstorkel

Ah, "straight-pull spokes" not just "straight spokes". That shouldn't make a difference. Just don't break one: replacements can be difficult to obtain...

Maybe. To me, straight-pull spokes seem like a gimmick to make sure you have to buy over-priced replacement spokes directly from the manufacturer

contango 

Sure, I guess you can just as easily put thicker spokes with the regular elbow in them on the wheel. That reminds me, I wanted to order a couple of spare spokes just in case, so if I do break one I don't have to wait until it comes in before the wheel can be fixed up.

Nightshade

Two discussions on strong bike wheels........
https://www.myra-simon.com/bike/wheels.html

https://www.myra-simon.com/bike/bwheel-rev.html

contango 

Cool, some good stuff to read through there. Thanks for the pointer, I'll add those to my bookmark list!

SortaGrey

GREAT thread here guys.. right on what I am attempting now. Per the link just above"

"Thus, in order to keep the rim in the center, the right hand spokes will have to be much tighter than the left hand spokes. When the wheelbuilder is tensioning the wheel, the right side spoke will reach their maximum tightness long before the left spokes will. It is the weakness of the less-tight left hand spokes that makes a highly dished wheel (one where the angle difference between the left and right spokes is great) less strong and less durable than a wheel with less dish"

I had a time gripping dish.. as I didn't have a template laid out from the previous 5 sp spacing on this freewheel hub... I'm building a 7 sp. Went and reviewed the 7 on my winter rider.. now I understand the compromises of spacing and the why's... that spacing at 126.

YET.. left side soft spoke tension seems.. what... making the right side take more stress.. [?]. I keep going back to that issue... how to find a way to get more tension on the left side.. which as I type this now it comes into focus the why NOT. Right side has to accomplish that spacing to fit the cog set into that side... doing 126 spacing means much less distance between hub and dropout on the left side. So.... if one had the room to spread the frame wider and the axle length... adding more spacing on the left side would reduce dish.. then allowing higher tension/near right side tension.. and thus spreading the stresses more equally around the spokes? My NON experienced bias now makes me think a strong wheel divides stresses as near to equal around the hub to the spokes.........

One thought.... per new wheel builders. This aint rocket science.. just some patience.. taking one's time to LEARN it right early on. Some common sense.. after reading the better sources around the net I see no reason to buy some books. No amount of further reading is going to take the place of the work/time and experience to LEARN wheelbuilding. Cause and effect... solve the worst problems first.

I might have miss-read the material on this strong wheel build article... the advice to true the wheel BEFORE dishing. Yes to a reasonable extent for trueness... yet the wheel would have to be a relatively LOW tension yet. One can't wait.. seems to me.. to make the basic shape of the wheel when the tension is down to 1/4 to 1/2 turns etc. [?].

I read the advice to acquire a dishing tool often. If one has a truing stand.. you have a dishing tool. I know some like tools for their sake.. no problem with that.. just two doing the same job is just more clutter IMO.

3alarmer 

I post from time to time on the topic
of wheel building in general. Here are
a couple of other threads you might
find of interest:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post11917267

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post11893255

If I have anything important to tell you,
it would probably be to not believe anyone
who tells you that the new, box section,
deep dish rims are so much stronger that
riding around on 28 spoke wheels is just fine.


Also, from some of the posts here, I would
advise that doing this a few times, as opposed
to reading about it and swapping theory, will
go a long way toward answering a lot of your
questions.

Yours respectfully,
Michael Larmer

p.s. I'm 6'2" and 230#

SortaGrey

"If I have anything important to tell you, it would probably be to not believe anyonewho tells you that the new, box section,deep dish rims are so much stronger that riding around on 28 spoke wheels is just fine."

I'm missing the point Michael... your saying all this low count spoke talk on new design rims etc is still misses the point of higher count rims made well being stronger? For me, all the weight weenie issues with repect to wheels I chuckle at. What is at issue is a few ounces.. nothing of consequence when one has a another tire NOT on the bike.

I'm on the shelf housebound with a chest cold.. means no outside at all for me... not even to assemble a truing stand. Hence I'm looking for input on ideas I'm processing after the wheel building reading... something to occupy the mind. I spent yrs recreational target rifle shooting... with low cost components mostly. Means one had to tune the tool.. lap etc... understand the harmonics involved. That was the fun and challenge... bike wheels.. looking in from the outside now.. appear to be the same challenge.

Spoke tension meters. If one is building high end $$ wheels I guess why not. Yet the Park site allows around a 40% variance (post in another thread) in tension of the spokes. If one couldn't determine that large window by sound and feel.... then buying them (wheels) sounds like a better plan.

sstorkel

This is one of the reasons to buy a rim with off-center drilling. I used Velocity's Synergy OC rims on my touring bike and was surprised at how much closer the tension was between the drive and non-drive spokes. For my build, the non-drive spokes had about 85% of the tension of the drive-side spokes. Seems like this should be better than the 60-65% you typically see with a dished wheel.

I believe this is only true if you buy a high-end truing stand, like the Park TS-2. For me, it was cheaper to buy a Minoura stand and a dishing tool. The Minoura stand doesn't maintain it's alignment when the wheel is removed, so you can't flip the wheel over and check the dish like you can with a TS-2. For me, the cost of a stand and dishing tool was half the cost of a Park TS-2 truing stand...

SortaGrey

"I believe this is only true if you buy a high-end truing stand, like the Park TS-2. For me, it was cheaper to buy a Minoura stand and a dishing tool."

Thanks.. I learned something. My intent to build a stand that allows flipping to check dish. I can see other reasons to have a dish tool though... too.

Went and reviewed that Synergy rim... that looks like a plan if one is doing 36 hole. Seems to me that design should be more widely used/made.. [?].

I got my first wheel trued.. frankly is seemed easy... 14g spokes. The hub is an old FW for a 5 sp I think labeled made in France. High flange.... I made for a 7 sp/130mm... which did not require nearly the dish effect I see for instance on my 8 sp rear with the FHub. Left side tension is less per usual... but I'd guess not as low as 60% of right (referencing another post)... yet having no tension meter to really know I'm going by feel. Lateral truing is decent.. I'd guestimate less than 10 thou runout.. have a small hop in the rim which I left for now. I did have it round.. but getting this used rim lateral took that out... I think I'll go back and see if I can refine both together.

This is a 4 cross 36 hole... bought that length spoke before I read some issues with 4 crosses.. per going over the ajoining spoke head. Mine do not... just clearing that head allowing for chging out a spoke if needed w/o removing another for clearance. I see a 4 cross FRONT wheel in my stock here... OLD one... I believe factory. Dead round... each way.. dunno if the 4 has a drop to do with that. In my view.. longer spokes have more 'give'... more elasticity at the same tension as shorter ones. Granted only around 10-12 mm per this build vs a 3 cross... but IMO that is some advantage however minor.

These double and triple butted on the surface seem like a marketing tool to me... [more theory etc.. ]. I read remarks per the elbow thickness... can anyone supply that diameter measured? I can't find it.

For SURE.. building a 1st wheel isn't finalized when it hasn't been riden for a test. That's next after the chest cold passes. But I find wheelbuilding very enjoyable.

SortaGrey

https://i56.tinypic.com/s610y1.jpg

I trued my rim on the bike.. using this gauge of sorts for alignment. Moved the can so just rubbed on the rim... for roundess too.. gave very precise results. The hop I had previously noted was very small.. well under half an mm... yet I refined that.

sstorkel

Building a stand that allows for flipping is more difficult than it sounds, I think. Keeping the wheel precisely centered while you remove and flip it could be a challenge. Probably helps if you only have to deal with wheels of a single size, rather than commercial stand which try to accommodate everything.

I used the 32-hole version of the Synergy OC rim. They also make an OC version of their light-weight Aerohead rim; it's offered in 24-, 28-, 32-, and 36-hole versions. Dunno that it's Cylde-friendly, though. I'm surprised more people don't offer rims with offset drilling. My guess is that the average bicyclist won't keep a given wheelset long enough to see a real benefit from an OC rim.

I think that double butted spokes are well worth the additional cost over straight-gauge spokes. Not sure about triple-butted spokes...

SortaGrey

I'll yield to your experience.... don't have a drop with them.. yet.

My issue is this: butted spokes means in the end your really riding the small gauge wire being used... really 15's on a 14/15. Consider the revoulutions of a wheel per mile.. how many times does that thin section flex.. then per 1000 miles. For a weight cargo near a norm.. say 125 pounds for the rear... methinks that wheel is well under a high stress level. But load 225-240+ lbs on that rear... mistakenly clunk a few potholes etc.. I still like (bias) the idea of the heavier gauge spoke.

That thin wire section is a circuit breaker of sorts.. flexing to protect elbows.. which carry the stresses of manufacture to varying degrees... variation in wire content also factoring in & mounting to the hub. Say you take a 36H with 240 pounds load... each spoke is carrying 6.7 lbs.. or are they given the left side softer tension [?]. I still go back to that one section flexing each rev.. vs the whole spoke unit taking that stress.

One has to admit.. there's a load of hoey in the marketing of most everything.. hence my normal skepticism. Something NEW adds some buzz.. something for the sales dept to quack about. Push it out the door.. whatever that takes.........

I want to do a 48H rear this winter yet... I'll consider double's.