Photos are taken by a camera and no camera can represent what the human eye sees accurately. However if go to MTBR for 2012 and look at all the pictures taken, again it's a camera but the camera is set at the same light level, same aperture, and same speed so that all the lights would be represented equally. As you look at those pictures it becomes very obvious that the shaped beam optics, which the Philips at the time is the only one with that feature, is far brighter on the grass (or road if you were travelling on one) then all but the most powerful/expensive lights. See: 2012 Bike Lights Shootout ? Backyard Beam Pattern Photos - Mtbr.com I can tell that in person the Philips looks different then the picture looks, mine looks more pear shape with a very wide beam close to me and then slowly tapering to a dull (dull like in a dull point, not dim) point, maybe if the fence wasn't there that could have been noticed. Anyway the point is that shaped optics is slowly becoming more common because they can offer a much greater level of brightness where you need it...on the road, and because this can be done with less power the battery will last longer, which is why most dynamo lights, like the ones you have, can emit a very intense beam onto the road yet do so without the very dim lights of the old round beam which wasted a lot of light energy that a dynamo system could not afford to lose, but up until shaped optics they had no choice which is why dynamo systems didn't sell very well.

You don't know what dynamo lights I have. The dynamo lights I use regularly are DIYs with conical non-shaped beams, with 4 to 6 high powered leds. The shaped beam light I have, the B&M Eyc, is on my least used bike. Shaped beams aren't all that.

Seriously...

I noticed when I used to read a camera forum that these flame wars only tended to happen when two things are very very close to each other. When a new camera came out that was clearly superior, not much arguing happened. When a camera came out that was close to another one, huge flame wars went on about which one was "best".

I've read some interesting theories that suggest it's some sort of human behavior to keep group cohesion or weed out similar but different tools or ideologies so that the group acts all as one, specifically in situations where the difference between one thing and another are small to non-existant. But of course, these were the kind of petty disagreements that also sometimes started warfare, so I don't want to make it sound to nice.

I think if we suddenly saw good dynamo's and light for $30, it would be pretty much agreed that dynamos were better, except if you were doing serious racing.

I mean I absolutely love modern dynamo lights (15 years ago they were crap, but LED's completely changed things). But I still use a mix. I'm also fortunate to have a good job and money, so the money vs hassle goes towards less hassle. On my commuter it's definitely a dynamo light. On my winter bike it is as well (it came with a dynamo hub, so dealing with batteries in the cold would be silly). On the other hand my $5k ($3k is what I payed) full carbon bike, I can't imagine putting a dynamo hub on, so I use a Phillips Saferide. I use a battery light on my mountain bike as well, but just mostly because I already own the light. They do make some mountain biking dynamo lights that look pretty cool - not a shaped beam, longer and brighter standlight, etc.

There are reasons for both. No doubt battery lights are cheaper, and cheaper still if you want to transfer them between different bikes. I mean much cheaper then. Dynamo's you don't have to do charging, or deal with batteries that you forgot to charge, batteries that got old and wore out, or even getting lost and running out of battery. They just keep working.

Like I said, I think it's actually that they're both pretty good for certain uses and there's no clear winner which is why these rediculous flame wars keep happening.

Yeah, we all feel safer in a tribe, and we all secretly (or perhaps openly?) enjoy feeling outraged at perceived injustice or stupidity on the part of those not in our tribe. Hence the liberal media (and on the other end of the spectrum, Fox News). But I digress into the political, which is verboten. Mabye it's ok because it's meta-political?

Its not accurate to quantify the functionality of all B&M lights by the one you have. Your Eyc is 50 lux, while my Luxos U is 70/90 lux, and Cyo premium plus is 80 lux. There's simply no comparison between them any more than comparing different lumen battery lights.
Not sure what the definition of "all that" is, but I know a headlight works better than a flashlight as vehicle lighting regardless of its power source.

Two of my bikes have vintage dyno lights modernized with rechargeable batteries and LED emitters, both have adjustable focus, but even the one with a semi shaped beam and dual emitters can't compare to modern true shaped beams with less total output.

Well, I'm liberal, and as long as you mention both I agree with you 100%, because there is some real bull**** on both sides.

I would think it would ok the discuss the process of politics as long as we don't delve into the actual political topics outside of things like bike lights, but I do find it interesting to notice that the flame wars and back and forths usually happen on two sides that are effectively very close to each other, and often don't happen when one side is actually clearly consistently better.

Since you like to use peterwhitecycle's exaggerated marketing speak and overexposed photos (one of your photo came from peterwhite): headlight beams from Peter White Cycles. The beam photos shown says Eyc is not that much different despite the "rated" lux.

In real life, those B&M lights are washed out when the road is wet and light intensity isn't high enough when going downhill at 60kph. Supernova E3 Triple or Exposure Revo D would be the light for that job.

For "bright lights" as per the OP, dynamo lights (other than Supernova E3 Triple, Exposure Revo D, maybe the Cyo Premium) ain't gonna cut it.


Shaped beams are overrated. A very powerful light (regardless of it being a flashlight or a dedicated bike light) makes a good vehicle light.

Well, we all have opinions, who's to say which is correct. :)

I still disagree. I have both an LED dyno light on my bike and a battery light. both are permanently attached and the reality is that I don't use the dyno light.

I havn't removed the dyno light, that would take effort, the dyno light provides a "backup" minimum-legal light. Sure, it has a slightly sharper cutoff on the top; however, it really isn't significant.

This is my third attempt at dyno lighting. I can't see myself trying again for a while. The simple facts are that the battery light is a better light. At the same price, knowing what I know now, I suspect I would go with the battery light. No, it is not the best choice for the zombie apocalypse; however, I am not running from zombies in a world with no productive capacity. I am just trying to get to work.

Why would you not use the dyno? Is the on-switch really inconvenient? In fact, why would the dyno even have an on/off switch?

It has an on/off switch. But then I would have to bother reaching to the switch for something that really doesn't put out much light. sometimes I forget and leave it on for a few days. It really doesn't matter because, compared to the battery light, it puts out so little light that it is barely noticeable. . . as I said, it is a minimum legal light, not much more.

I made point of using it exclusively for a couple of months after I got it. However, co workers started commenting that I "used to have a really good headlight" and now "I can barely see you when your riding."

The dyno combo is an Alfine hub and an AXA light. I know, people are going to say "your should try brand X." As I said, I have tried other dyno lights, they have just not impressed me. For the money of a half way decent dyno light you can have an outstanding battery light set up.

It I were competing in some sort of a 24hr unsupported race; or if I were worried about riding on a planet that bad no batteries, or electric mains, then the dyno light might make sense. For me, I am just going to work and to various markets.

As for "Why is it turned off?" I honestly didn't notice it was off until a few days ago when I saw my reflection and noticed I only had one light on the front of my bike working. I turned it on and noticed that it, effectively, made no difference.

I may remove it eventually; but it is good to have there as a backup legal light. Further, if I removed it I would feel a need to remove the dyno hub. . . and that would involve effort. . .

(yes, I'm one of those annoying ". . . because I'm too lazy to walk from the parking lot. . ." cycle commuters.)


What it really comes down to is that the dyno-light turned out to be a useless farkle.
Now the belt drive, that's different, it is really helping me approach my goal of a "maintenance-free" bike.

In general I agree with this; however, firstly, I do not see this as having devolved to a flame war. Secondly, part of the reason I keep up with my comments is because the dyno-faithful keep up such strong advocacy for something I have found to not be that great.

I just don't want people considering cycle commuting to be turned off by the apparent need to spend a couple of hundred on a light set-up (okay, some are saying $160, if you can find good deals and build your own wheels). I would also like to help people avoid spending that money and ending up with something that is clearly second rate. When that happens a lot of people get discouraged and give up.

The forums are about sharing experience; so, yes, I am sharing my experience. That isn't flame war.

It would be more helpful if you would identify specifically what lights you have tried past and present. My experiences with inexpensive Cateye Jido, Planet bike blaze, and Maglight battery lights were totally disappointing, but don't quantify the effectiveness of all battery lights.

Abundant Conflicting Opinions and touts are in this section Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets also ..

OP seems in the Battery Tribe , I've joined the Hub Dynamo Wired Head ant taillight Tribe .
I like that I simply get on the bike and ride , and the motion is where the power for the lights is Made.


Each Tribe of Shoppers, Built their loyal following buying different Products which requires them to Proclaim their tribal loyalty.

Carry On.

[QUOTE=fietsbob;17712549]Abundant Conflicting Opinions

Hardly anyone considers that we each have different Night Vision

I learned a lot about lights--different rating systems, methods of producing power, lens design and stuff on a flashlight forum. Nothing but lighting talk. They aren't sidetracked by silly arguments about tires, chain lube, frame material or saddles to dilute the info.

That being said, I ended my light search with a L&M Urban 650. Maybe not the best, better than a lot that I have used and good enough for me.

And live in different size population centers, towns and countries .

Naturally, that works both ways.
The appropriate amount of light for one persons desires can be inappropriate for another persons needs.

From this thread -
http://www.bikeforums.net/electronic...ternative.html

Luxx 70 (though aimed to low) -
http://www.baslerbikes.de/files/Basl...70%2070Lux.jpg

Schmidt Edelux 2 (though aimed to low) -
http://www.baslerbikes.de/files/Basl...29%2030kmh.jpg

Luxos IQ2 (aimed fairly correctly) -
http://www.baslerbikes.de/files/Basl...ingestellt.jpg

Axa Luxx lights are cheap crap...sorry...but that's what I've been told and how they look. I'm told they're the Walmart brand that competes against B&M in Europe based on being much cheaper in exchange for being much crappier.

The brightest and best dynamo lights would probably be either the Schmidt Edelux 2 (shaped beam), or the Exposure Revo 4 (round beam, supposedly 800 real lumens).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think this is the mechanism through which 2 things that are similar end up leading to these flame wars. Because someone is always feeling that the differences or drawbacks of their thing are big, and don't notice the differences or drawbacks of the other thing.

"I tried getting an expensive Dinotte battery light for winter riding, took it out, and the damn thing gave me the low battery warning in less than half an hour! Tried it several more times, same results. Battery lights are useless farkle, I'm going back to my reliable dynamo light. I just ended up with second rate crap."

"I was told battery lights are much cheaper, so I bought a cheap magicshine clone off of amazon. Damn thing lasted less than an hour. It was supposed to last at least 2 hours, I was hoping for 4. Battery lights are useless farkle, I'm going back to my reliable dynamo light. Battery lights are second rate crap."

"I bought a Light and Motion Seca light. Biked on the bike trail with it, people were yelling at me, other people were clearly bothered by my light and cleared off the trail. Battery lights are useless farkle, I'm going back to my dynamo light where I never had this issue. Battery lights are second rate crap."

"I have a simple Planet Bike aa battery light. Was biking home, got dark a little sooner than I thought, turned out the batteries weren't as charged as I thought they were and the light was a little dim. Tried to make a turn onto a short path back to the road, hit the curb that I couldn't see. I fell over hitting the curb, my tire got a pinch flat, and I'm sitting there looking like an idiot as my son comes up to see if I'm ok. Battery lights are useless farkle, I'm going back to my dynamo light where I never had this issue. Battery lights are second rate crap."

"I rode my bike with my expensive battery lights over to a friends place, I'm riding back and they seem a little dim. I hit the button and they go back up to bright. A few minutes later, I'm on a trail with no other lights - and my lights dies completely. I have to try to ride home by the moonlight with no other light whatsoever. Turns out my batteries had gotten old, and needed to be replaced, leaving me stranded with no idea that this would happen. Battery lights are useless farkle, I'm going back to my dynamo light where I never had this issue. Battery lights are second rate crap."

This could go back and forth forever, even between 2 genuinely considerate and well meaning people, let alone in an internet argument.

That was what was discussed before, that dynamo lights are more expensive if you're not buying the top end battery lights.

I went through that same thing with battery lights. My first one was a Light and Motion Seca 900 that cost around $600. Nowadays, my only use for it is having a light to look through dimly lit closets, or in my garage where there's not enough lighting. I was very frustrated that for that kind of money I didn't get a light that did everything.

I could go on, but I just haven't seen a difference there between battery and dynamo. Seen lots of people love dynamo and hate battery lights, and seen some people love battery lights and love dynamos.

I haven't seen anyone buy one of the good dynamo lights and come back and say they're crap, but who knows, maybe it could happen. The other poster brings up a good point about people having different levels of night vision. I could imagine it happening, but cannot imagine a situation where no one comes back and also doesn't have complaints about their battery lights either. I also see complaints about the cheap battery lights - both the cheap ones, and the expensive ones.

That's a really good point as well.

Lighting is honestly a real pain. I find lights that are to bright to be a problem because it creates a "cone of light" problem where you can't see outside what the bike light lights up. But, if I had poor night vision, this would not matter at all, and I'd probably no idea what other people were talking about this were experiencing.

If you are operating without lights, each of us has different night vision. But once you turn on any white light, everyone becomes night blind. Rod cells in everyones eyes are saturated at very low white light levels. Even momentary exposure to white light can saturate the rod cells. You can see some things outside of your light cone but not much detail and, if you turn the lights off, you can't really see anything for several minutes.

At Sea on ships all the dials and the room light are red, to preserve night vision ... good luck with that on the city streets.

Bottom line, dynamo systems cost more than battery systems, and put out less light, but are more reliable and convenient than keeping track of battery charging. So it all depends on how much you value raw output, and how onerous you find recharging.

Some day dynamo tech will probably get to a point where output is not an issue; then it just becomes a question of the value of liberating yourself from batteries, which will still be a personal judgment. So the lighting wars will continue, ad infinitum.

You pretty much summarized it.

For many many people, myself included, it's already reached that point when they came out with the Cyo. The Cyo Premium / Schmidt Edelux II are just even better in lighting up a wider area.

However, the other poster makes a good point about how different people's eye might be handling their ability to see at night with less light differently. On the other hand, I see a huge number of people biking around town at night with no lights whatsoever, or a tiny just "to be seen" light.

There's a point where the amount of light put out is sufficient, and a point where more light does absolutely nothing or is even a drawback.

Eh, in my experience it's like carbon vs steel, or records vs cd's vs mp3's, or mtn vs road shoes. At some point the reasonable people get tired of the pointless debate, and then with no one to listen the argumentative find themselves bored on the topic as well.

OP is already set on the battery lights so there is no point to keep beating this horse any longer.
But anyway I like the Dynamo hub because I find it reliably. The lights I have are the Lumotec IQ Premium CYO, and I commute 10 miles on dark country road without street lights or anything. And because my experience I highly recommend this.

Busch & Muller dynamo bicycle lights