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Finally I'm a CyclingSavvy graduate!

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Finally I'm a CyclingSavvy graduate!

Old 06-30-15, 08:13 AM
  #1  
PatrickGSR94
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Finally I'm a CyclingSavvy graduate!

My wife and I attended the CyclingSavvy course in St. Louis this past Friday and Saturday, something I've been wanting to do ever since I heard about the course over 2 years ago. We did the classroom session on Friday evening, and then the parking lot drills Saturday morning, and the Tour of St. Louis ride in the afternoon. Weather couldn't have been better, with a mix of sun and clouds and temps in the upper 70's. In June!

I thoroughly enjoyed the course. I was definitely the most experienced cyclist in attendance. Pretty much everyone else (all women other than one woman's 15 y.o. son) were beginners of some level or another. Even though I've been putting CS principles into practice for a couple of years now, there was still more to learn.

For those who think CS teaches dogmatic vehicular cycling, you are absolutely mistaken. CS is geared towards transportation cycling (which is why I'm posting in the Commuting forum), but the principles can be used by anyone and everyone who rides on public roads, for any reason. What CS does is try to identify and convey what the hazards are on public roads, and then teach principles that can be used to avoid those hazards, avoid crashes, as much as possible. You may prefer bike lanes, or quiet side streets, and that's just fine. But sometimes you might have to use part of a larger, busier road to connect the smaller roads you want to be on. CS teaches you how to safely and EASILY traverse those larger roads without any problems from motorists or anyone else. Maybe you even prefer to use the sidewalk for a short distance. With CS you're better equipped to recognize the hazards of sidewalk riding, so that you can still make it safely to your destination.

For example, we went from the mall parking lot on the right here, through 3 traffic lights under this massive interchange, and turned left onto another side street (Eager Road). https://goo.gl/maps/n2DYH Using CS principles it was quite easy. One of the ladies who goes through this area in her car every day even said it was LESS stressful on her bike than it is in her car. And there was just as much traffic with the mall as there is on a weekday rush hour.

I learned some new techniques such as "right on green", meaning waiting to turn right until the light turns green (move left in the lane to let right on red motorists by you, if you want). This gives you an almost empty road which is useful if you have a left turn coming right up. Much easier than turning right into the right lane and then having to negotiate through adjacent lanes with passing traffic.

I would highly recommend CyclingSavvy to anyone who uses their bike for transportation, or for any purpose really. It can and does change people's lives.

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Old 06-30-15, 11:37 AM
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I didn't even know there was such a course. I would recommend it too to any beginner rider.
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Old 06-30-15, 12:51 PM
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That's cool! I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation class when I learned to ride and then took the experienced rider class several years later. I'm extremely grateful to have been able to have learned this way, and understand your gratitude here.
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Old 06-30-15, 01:06 PM
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Cycling saavy is pure VC dogma. For example:

1) Ride on the road.


Adult bicyclists do not belong on the sidewalk.
One of the advantages of cycling for transportation is that people cycling often have the legal option to ride on sidewalks, in crosswalks, on turf/dirt, and in between lanes. Any organization that seeks to limit this freedom of movement harms cycling advocacy.

2) Know and follow the rules.

The rules of the road are for everyone. They exist to make us all predictable to one another.
The rules are written for and by motorists and their enforcement is typically motorist-centric. Moreover, bike-specific traffic statutes are often discriminatory, contradictory, and/or intentionally vague. IMO, cyclists should prioritize safety over car-centric traffic statutes.

Bicyclists who violate the rules are not only far more likely to be hit by a car, they are disruptive and breed animosity among fellow road users.
Many states have different rules and there is essentially no evidence that these differences make people "more likely to be hit by a car" or that "they are disruptive and breed animosity among fellow road users."



3) Integrate in the intersections.
This mushy language calls for people to play chicken with multi-ton machines driven by people who typically face no legal consequence for hitting, injuring, or killing vulnerable traffic. A perfect recipe for 0.5% mode share for ever.


4) Ride Big.
Elitist macho BS. And I'm being polite.

5) Communicate.
Victim blaming. Its not the job of vulnerable traffic to communicate to people sealed hermetically in multi-ton metal machines. It's the job of drivers to pay the %^&* attention.

6) Be mindful of your surroundings.
A vague title that hides more VC extremism:

This often means leaving a bike lane
Of course it does...because bike lanes are dangerous things that will kill you if you do not ride like a car. /sarcasm

Passing a queue of stopped traffic on the right can expose you to many crash hazards.
More fear mongering. In OR cyclists have the legal right to pass on the right and many, many thousands do so safely every day.

Sometimes it’s better just to wait in the queue.
There are so many other options than just sucking on a tail pipe.


8) Want respect? Act respectably.
Car head.

When motorists arrive before you at a red light, stop behind them. Don’t pull to the front of the queue
Car head.
Cycling savvy is asking people who bike to give up their legal right of way to placate some hypothetical angry minority of people driving. I am legal vulnerable traffic and I will use the quickest and most expeditious route while also being considerate to the right of way of other road users (and especially vulnerable pedestrians).

Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-30-15 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 06-30-15, 01:39 PM
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Sorry guys but what's "VC"?
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Old 06-30-15, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GovernorSilver View Post
Sorry guys but what's "VC"?
Vehicular cycling. The ideology that people cycling should behave like motorvehicles. Also known as "bicycle driving".
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Old 06-30-15, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GovernorSilver View Post
Sorry guys but what's "VC"?
Viet Cong

I think Spare Nuts is just trying to see if he can start a war.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:55 PM
  #8  
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I agree with sparewheel, its elitist dogma indoctrination.
By placing artificial limitations, and arbitrary demands on ones choices, it alienates those who don't possess the boldness, and athletic abilities to pull it off......which is most people who aren't already cycling enthusiasts.
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Old 06-30-15, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Vehicular cycling. The ideology that people cycling should behave like motorvehicles. Also known as "bicycle driving".
Pretty sure it also mandates that you make "vrooom vrooom" noises with your mouth while biking.
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Old 06-30-15, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
This mushy language calls for people to play chicken with multi-ton machines driven by people who typically face no legal consequence for hitting, injuring, or killing vulnerable traffic. A perfect recipe for 0.5% mode share for ever.
+eleventybillion
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Old 06-30-15, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Cycling saavy is pure VC dogma. For example:

One of the advantages of cycling for transportation is that people cycling often have the legal option to ride on sidewalks, in crosswalks, on turf/dirt, and in between lanes. Any organization that seeks to limit this freedom of movement harms cycling advocacy.

The rules are written for and by motorists and their enforcement is typically motorist-centric. Moreover, bike-specific traffic statutes are often discriminatory, contradictory, and/or intentionally vague. IMO, cyclists should prioritize safety over car-centric traffic statutes.

Many states have different rules and there is essentially no evidence that these differences make people "more likely to be hit by a car" or that "they are disruptive and breed animosity among fellow road users."

This mushy language calls for people to play chicken with multi-ton machines driven by people who typically face no legal consequence for hitting, injuring, or killing vulnerable traffic. A perfect recipe for 0.5% mode share for ever.

Elitist macho BS. And I'm being polite.

Victim blaming. Its not the job of vulnerable traffic to communicate to people sealed hermetically in multi-ton metal machines. It's the job of drivers to pay the %^&* attention.

A vague title that hides more VC extremism:

Of course it does...because bike lanes are dangerous things that will kill you if you do not ride like a car. /sarcasm

More fear mongering. In OR cyclists have the legal right to pass on the right and many, many thousands do so safely every day.

There are so many other options than just sucking on a tail pipe.

Car head.

Car head.
Cycling savvy is asking people who bike to give up their legal right of way to placate some hypothetical angry minority of people driving. I am legal vulnerable traffic and I will use the quickest and most expeditious route while also being considerate to the right of way of other road users (and especially vulnerable pedestrians).
Okay buddy, you continue to ride in fear of getting clobbered by 2-ton vehicles, and I'll continue to ride with almost no negative interactions or problems whatsoever, communicating with motorists and paying attention to my surroundings.

I agree with you about bike laws being discriminatory. That's why FTR laws and 3FP laws need to be repealed and replaced with full lane rights for cyclists, with no exceptions.

Until you have been through the class, stop making ASSumptions.
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Old 06-30-15, 07:29 PM
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Sounds really interesting @PatrickGSR94. I'm doing something similar later this month. It's a course with the League of American Bicyclists, Traffic Safety 101. After that I'm planning to do their course to become a League certified instructor. I'm hoping this will make me a more effective volunteer at the co-op. Really looking forward to it!
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Old 06-30-15, 07:48 PM
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I heard a famous basketball coach (don't remember his name as I don't follow sports much) tell a story once. He was at some sort of conference for coaches, and while he was standing around between sessions someone introduced him to John Wooden (famous UCLA basketball coach). He was a bit star struck, but Coach Wooden started chatting with him and discussing some of the upcoming sessions. He was amazed that as successful a coach as Wooden was going to sessions and listening to presentations, always interested in learning. A great lesson that I carry with me, there is always something new to learn. I am on the list for a cycling savvy class at our club and looking forward to it.
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Old 06-30-15, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jimincalif View Post
I heard a famous basketball coach (don't remember his name as I don't follow sports much) tell a story once. He was at some sort of conference for coaches, and while he was standing around between sessions someone introduced him to John Wooden (famous UCLA basketball coach). He was a bit star struck, but Coach Wooden started chatting with him and discussing some of the upcoming sessions. He was amazed that as successful a coach as Wooden was going to sessions and listening to presentations, always interested in learning. A great lesson that I carry with me, there is always something new to learn. I am on the list for a cycling savvy class at our club and looking forward to it.
Well said. It doesn't hurt to listen.

You may learn something you didn't know. You may not.

In all likelihood, there is something of value in it, even if one doesn't agree with all of it.
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Old 06-30-15, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Giant Doofus View Post
Sounds really interesting @PatrickGSR94. I'm doing something similar later this month. It's a course with the League of American Bicyclists, Traffic Safety 101. After that I'm planning to do their course to become a League certified instructor. I'm hoping this will make me a more effective volunteer at the co-op. Really looking forward to it!
Yeah I took the TS101 last year. It's more of a "general" class, covering things including equipment, basic repair stuff, as well as rules and rights of cyclists. CS didn't cover any repair topics, and the only equipment touched on was lighting for night use. The rest of it really focuses on the rights and duties of cyclists, as well as explain various crash risks with techniques on how to avoid such risks. Then on the tour we rode as a group to various different "feature" locations where each person individually (or with an instructor if they want) can practice the techniques shown in the classroom - things like positioning yourself for your destination, communicating your intentions to other road users, control and release techniques, avoiding right-turning vehicles and door zone bike lanes, so on and so forth.

TS101 is a good class for general cycling-related topics, but for transportational cyclists I think CS really hits it out of the park.
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Old 06-30-15, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
rules and rights of cyclists.
rights and duties of cyclists,

control and release techniques,
What "right"' "rule"' or "duty" grants cyclists permission to interfere with other road users in an illegal attempt to control their actions?

Oh, sorry, its a trick question hat has no legitimate answer
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Old 07-01-15, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
What "right"' "rule"' or "duty" grants cyclists permission to interfere with other road users in an illegal attempt to control their actions?

Oh, sorry, its a trick question hat has no legitimate answer
I didn't read in his paragraph that he was supporting illegal riding to control others, if that is his agenda then he needs to explain himself, but I didn't get that from the paragraph. Cyclists do have rules and rights, just as motorists do and are the same as motorists with the exception that cyclists are to ride as far right as they safely can when not keeping up with the flow of traffic, and if you break those rules then you get penalized if you get caught.

Maybe you can enlighten us as to what right and rules you think Patrick was talking about then we can have a discussion about those.
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Old 07-01-15, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
...
TS101 is a good class for general cycling-related topics, but for transportational cyclists I think CS really hits it out of the park.
CS has a great class. However, TS101 is about transportational cycling. In fact, CS was started by former TS101 instructors.

The differences between CS and LAB are purely political and that's fine. You can't go wrong with either course.

Any commuter or utilitarian cyclist would benefit their safety by taking either one.
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Old 07-01-15, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
What "right"' "rule"' or "duty" grants cyclists permission to interfere with other road users in an illegal attempt to control their actions?

Oh, sorry, its a trick question hat has no legitimate answer
Where are you getting this "illegal" stuff from? When a lane is too narrow to share (almost all travel lanes), I control it by not riding at the edge and making it clear that a lane change is required to pass. On a 2-lane road if I'm on a blind hill or curve, or I can see oncoming traffic that the motorist behind me may not see, I motion for them to stay back until it's safe so they don't try something stupid. What makes you think that is illegal? It's about safety for all road users.

LAB's TS101 teaches some of the same principles about lane control, also. Do you dogmatically oppose them, also?

My TS101 instructor used the Street Smarts booklet written by John S. Allen, and *surprise* he's a CS instructor also!
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Old 07-01-15, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
I didn't read in his paragraph that he was supporting illegal riding to control others, if that is his agenda then he needs to explain himself, but I didn't get that from the paragraph. Cyclists do have rules and rights, just as motorists do and are the same as motorists with the exception that cyclists are to ride as far right as they safely can when not keeping up with the flow of traffic, and if you break those rules then you get penalized if you get caught.

Maybe you can enlighten us as to what right and rules you think Patrick was talking about then we can have a discussion about those.
Its part of the core message that CS pontificates, and he has been an ardent supporter of their anti cycling*1 ideology. This thread he opens with a VC*2 disclaimer, then proceeds to preach its virtues. Its the old "were not here to convert you, just show you our truth".

*1 Riding a bicycle like its a bicycle in accordance with its strengths and weaknesses to best match conditions and ones abilities.
*2 Driving a bicycle like its a car despite its strengths and weaknesses even when contrary to conditions and ones abilities.
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Old 07-01-15, 08:29 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Where are you getting this "illegal" stuff from? When a lane is too narrow to share (almost all travel lanes), I control it by not riding at the edge and making it clear that a lane change is required to pass. On a 2-lane road if I'm on a blind hill or curve, or I can see oncoming traffic that the motorist behind me may not see, I motion for them to stay back until it's safe so they don't try something stupid. What makes you think that is illegal? It's about safety for all road users.

LAB's TS101 teaches some of the same principles about lane control, also. Do you dogmatically oppose them, also?

My TS101 instructor used the Street Smarts booklet written by John S. Allen, and *surprise* he's a CS instructor also!
VC dogma is VC dogma, whatever its form. Using legitimate safety instruction to sow anti cycling ideologies is just back door deception.

Ones duty and responsibility is to their own actions, traffic control is for those duly authorized to engage in those activities. Ride where you choose, but don't try to make those choices for other road users.
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Old 07-01-15, 08:39 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Cycling savvy is asking people who bike to give up their legal right of way to placate some hypothetical angry minority of people driving.
I'm getting a little cognitive dissonance here. You whine about cyclists giving up their legal right of way, but tell them they shouldn't be getting in the way of cars.
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There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
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Old 07-01-15, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Okay buddy, you continue to ride in fear of getting clobbered by 2-ton vehicles, and I'll continue to ride with almost no negative interactions or problems whatsoever, communicating with motorists and paying attention to my surroundings.
you do that. just don't expect my sister, father, or cohabitant to what was that word again..."integrate"...with multi-ton vehicles (driven by inattentive people). nothing gives me more joy than flowing through the evil river of traffic but to actually expect others to ride like i do is akin to insanity. likewise cycling savvy teaches default cycling techniques that will only appeal to a narrow cross section of the population.



I agree with you about bike laws being discriminatory. That's why FTR laws and 3FP laws need to be repealed and replaced with full lane rights for cyclists, with no exceptions.
i essentially advocate for the right of cyclists to do pretty much whatever they want (as long as it does not interfere with the right of way of others) but the use of "no exceptions" in that comment is a tell. there are always exceptions. i expect exceptions and am more than willing to make use of exceptions to get around my city safely and efficiently.
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Old 07-01-15, 08:57 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
The rest of it really focuses on the rights and duties of cyclists, as well as explain various crash risks with techniques on how to avoid such risks.
I am skeptical of any explanation of bicycling "various crash risks" taught by instructors to include John Allen (an avid devotee of John Forester) with a background of vehicular cycling promotion. Did the explanations of the so-called "various risks" derive from the John Forester data juggling playbook and include implied references to phobia, superstition and inferiority complexes about fear of the rear and the techniques necessary to overcome these alleged "incompetent cyclist" psychological weaknesses?

If not VC dogma/agenda derived, what was/is the source of the Cycling Savvy course information about "various crash risk"?
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Old 07-01-15, 09:05 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I'm getting a little cognitive dissonance here. You whine about cyclists giving up their legal right of way, but tell them they shouldn't be getting in the way of cars.
huh? i was specifically referring to the prohibition against filtering to the front of a queue.

i defend the right of people to bicycle drive* or to flow through traffic in a more organic style but teaching these styles of cycling as default techniques is elitist and, imo, harmful to more widespread adoption of cycling.

*still think sucking tail pipe is nucking futs but no direct harm no foul...

Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-01-15 at 09:13 AM.
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